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Atrocities, Nazis, etc

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  • Atrocities, Nazis, etc

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Nearly every time it and other Nazi atrocities get brought up you at the very least play "Whataboutism."
    The fact is that while the atrocities of the Nazis were horrendous and nobody would dispute or disagree with that, the Nazis do not encapsulate German history and other countries [while they spent more years doing so] have killed a great many more people either directly or indirectly. So if we are discussing moral rectitude there is not a nation on the planet that is totally "without sin".


    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Do you? It seems to be a point you frequently make even after it had been made
    I find it rather selective that when Nazi atrocities are referenced by some individuals, only the Jews get mentioned.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

    And to be clear by my saying "like Jews and Roma" I'm not limiting it to them either.
    I should hope not.

    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Now. Compare them yourself and see if you don't bump into a few significant differences.
    I would like to know why you selected Dachau as an example.

    It was not an extermination camp like Auschwitz or Treblinka. Beating, working, and starving people to death occurred both there and at Dora for those building von Braun's V-2 rockets.

    In Vietnam over 500 villagers were murdered simply for being Vietnamese.

    If you can see any ethical or moral differences do tell us.

    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

  • #2
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    Especially where a child (or children) is/are the victim(s).
    Like My Lai?

    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    It's like comparing the attack of 9/11 with a gang shooting in Chicago.
    No it is not unless you are including innocent by-standers in your Chicago gang shooting.

    The deliberate targeting and killing of innocent people, regardless of the numbers involved is, in my opinion, an atrocity, contrary to the rather facile comment made by rogue06 "that there are degrees of atrocities".

    Was the gang rape and murder by US soldiers of a fourteen year old Iraqi girl and the murder of several of her family member a lesser degree "of atrocity"? Were the fifty eight people gunned down by Stephen Paddock in Las Vegas somehow a lesser degree "of atrocity" ? How about the deliberately planned murders conducted by of Adam Lanza or Anders Behring Breivik? Were their victims also a lesser degree "of atrocity"?

    Once you introduce a sliding scale there is an ethical danger that what constitutes an atrocity is determined simply on the numbers of the victims it claims.
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by seer View Post

      Look, you could put the man and his fellow Nazi scientists in prison, or they can help us beat the great evil of Communism via the space/rocket race. It is a no brainer IMHO....
      Well that is an interesting morality.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

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      • #4
        Many of the people executed for war crimes post WWII should not have been, IMO, despite the crimes they committed. More than a few fully earned their sentences.

        sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

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        • #5
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post
          Many of the people executed for war crimes post WWII should not have been, IMO, despite the crimes they committed. More than a few fully earned their sentences.
          They weren't executed for war crimes, they were executed for losing.
          "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

          There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

          Comment


          • #6
            If you want to compare the two, here are the big differences between the Holocaust and My Lai.

            1. Scale. 347 people vs millions.
            2. Organization/Scope/"officialness": My Lai was an incident by a rogue company that was reported and then covered up. The holocaust, on the other hand was a deliberate, organized, systemic program to industrialize the removal of an entire race, directed by the highest offices of the government.
            3. Goals: The goal of the holocaust was to depopulate Germany and the areas under German control of Jews through mass extermination. Again, My Lai was a single incident. Given that the US was working with the South Vietnamese government, it was not trying to kill people "just because they were vietnamese" as you so patronizingly put it.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
              If you want to compare the two, here are the big differences between the Holocaust and My Lai.
              Are a few hundred deaths less of an atrocity than approximately eleven million?

              If so, on what criteria?

              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                Many of the people executed for war crimes post WWII should not have been, IMO, despite the crimes they committed. More than a few fully earned their sentences.
                Among the top echelon who most deserved the sentence the main characters escaped the noose;. Himmler, Goebbels, Hitler, Göring, Bormann, Mengele.
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  Are a few hundred deaths less of an atrocity than approximately eleven million?

                  If so, on what criteria?
                  Try addressing all the points instead of cherry picking your favorite point, cutting out the rest and ignoring them. I won't play that game with you anymore.

                  Don't worry I'll wait.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                    Try addressing all the points instead of cherry picking your favorite point, cutting out the rest and ignoring them. I won't play that game with you anymore.

                    Don't worry I'll wait.
                    Are a few hundred deaths less of an atrocity than approximately eleven million?

                    If so, on what criteria?

                    If you cannot address that question - we are at an impasse.
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      Are a few hundred deaths less of an atrocity than approximately eleven million?

                      If so, on what criteria?

                      If you cannot address that question - we are at an impasse.
                      I made more points than that. They form an entire argument. If you cannot address them as a group, that's on you. I won't play your cherry picked arguments, as they reek of intellectual dishonesty.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        Are a few hundred deaths less of an atrocity than approximately eleven million?
                        Yes.

                        If so, on what criteria?
                        Standard arithmetical ordering.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          Are a few hundred deaths less of an atrocity than approximately eleven million?

                          If so, on what criteria?
                          Basic primary school math?
                          "So when you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of the virus. So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination."
                          - Pfizer Scientist Chris Croce

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            T
                            I would like to know why you selected Dachau as an example.

                            It was not an extermination camp like Auschwitz or Treblinka. Beating, working, and starving people to death occurred both there and at Dora for those building von Braun's V-2 rockets.



                            Killing people on a mass scale through poison gas never took place in the Dachau concentration camp. It remains unexplained as to why the SS never used the operational gas chamber for this purpose. According to one contemporary witness account, some prisoners were killed by poison gas in 1944.

                            Somewhat secluded from the rest of the camp complex, the SS used the crematorium area as an execution site. Here prisoners were hung or shot in the back of the neck. The victims were mainly members of resistance organizations. A commemorative “path of death” takes visitors past the execution sites and the graves with the ashes.

                            Between 1933 and 1945, around 41,500 persons died of hunger, exhaustion, and disease, the direct result of being tortured, or were brutally murdered in the Dachau concentration camp and its subcamps.

                            https://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau....matorium-area/



                            Whether they used gas chambers or starvation, execution or disease, it still sounds like "extermination" to me.

                            And you are doing the whataboutism thing again.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              Among the top echelon who most deserved the sentence the main characters escaped the noose;. Himmler, Goebbels, Hitler, Göring, Bormann, Mengele.
                              That's ridiculous. The only reason most of those weren't hanged was because they committed suicide before they could be executed. That's not "escaping". Only Mengele actually escaped.
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