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Bow-and-arrow killings in Norway seen as an ‘act of terror’
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostThe bottom line here is that if somebody wants to kill somebody - or multiple people - they will find a way to do it.
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Originally posted by whag View PostNo one actually denies that only that some weapons are more efficient killing apparatus compared to crossbows and hunting knives.
Legalize hand grenades and land mines.
"Gun Control" is not about solving the school shootings problem -- it's simply using that crisis as an excuse to further a gun-grabbing agenda.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostSince the comparison was guns vs knives/bombs/vehicles, that comment isn't relevant since knives, bombs and cars don't magically jump out of houses either.
It's just a distraction.
You're a lot smarter than I thought!
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostIt is an terribly naïve person who thinks, at this point, that 'gun control' will keep guns out of the hands of people who want to do mass murder.
"Gun free zones" are incredibly bird-brained stupid in that they provide a killing zone where the criminal - or would be criminal - is thrilled to death that nobody else will have guns. Only a moron thinks that a criminal will recognize a "gun free zone" and not carry a gun into one.
That's a distortion of my position. Please stick to what I actually say, rather than your misrepresentation of it.
Again - not my position.
Wow, you really have quite the active imagination.- You'd have to KNOW that I stole your gun
- When you report a stolen gun, the police don't run out and check everybody in the vicinity for the stolen gun - it is often discovered only AFTER the shooting.
- You really are profoundly ignorant of mass shootings - the vast majority of them are carried out with handguns, not "assault rifles"
- You probably don't really know what an "assault rifle" is.
As I already mentioned, gun free zones do not exist to stop anyone intent on mass murder. I don't see the relevancy to the discussion.
"2) Do you think background checks are in any way effective?"
"I think they, in some cases, are way too incomplete -- when a school district knows full well that they have a problem student, and don't report that for any background check to find, it's crazy."
"If a criminal is going to get a gun they're not usually going to go through a background check to get it when they know their past record will disqualify them. And I'll note that many spree shooters who got their guns legally did so via passing the background checks."
"Agreed - and it's not so hard to get a gun (or several) from somebody who legally obtained it.
A lot of these shooters were kids --- not enough history for anything to show up on a cursory background check."
Why does it matter if they're incomplete? If a criminal can get a gun regardless of background checks how do they stop a mass killer from getting a gun? Why bother having background checks at all?
It doesn't matter that the majority of mass shootings are done with hand guns when discussing assault weapons-targeted gun control (I misspoke and said "assault rifles"), assuming the hand gun used doesn't qualify, because the aim is to reduce the amount of people killed and wounded. "Assault weapon" doesn't really have a specific definition and is instead an umbrella term for a variety of guns with certain features.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostLet's apply some critical thinking to this, OK?- If I steal your gun, I am, by definition, a criminal, right? (stealing a firearm is, indeed, a crime)
- If I steal your gun, I'm fully aware that I will be in trouble if it is found in my possession
- If I steal your gun to use it in a mass shooting, it shows I'm capable of PLANNING
- If I steal your gun, and am capable of planning, I'm smart enough to know I need to keep it concealed
So, how do the police manage to get your stolen gun from me before I implement my dastardly plan?
And what background check would reveal that I have a gun that I stole from you?
KEEP YOUR GUNS SECURE!!!
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Originally posted by Psychic Missile View PostMy bringing up a gun theft was an example of a possible obstacle a mass killer could face that would make obtaining a gun more difficult. Stealing a gun from someone is more difficult than buying it from a retailer. I don't see how that's disputable. It's really weird that you're so hung up on it when it's so inconsequential to my argument.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
The purpose of gun control in the USA is not to keep guns out of the hands of people who want to do mass murder, it's to make it more difficult and to reduce causalities.
As I already mentioned, gun free zones do not exist to stop anyone intent on mass murder. I don't see the relevancy to the discussion.
"2) Do you think background checks are in any way effective?"
"I think they, in some cases, are way too incomplete -- when a school district knows full well that they have a problem student, and don't report that for any background check to find, it's crazy."
"If a criminal is going to get a gun they're not usually going to go through a background check to get it when they know their past record will disqualify them. And I'll note that many spree shooters who got their guns legally did so via passing the background checks."
"Agreed - and it's not so hard to get a gun (or several) from somebody who legally obtained it.
A lot of these shooters were kids --- not enough history for anything to show up on a cursory background check."
Why does it matter if they're incomplete? If a criminal can get a gun regardless of background checks how do they stop a mass killer from getting a gun? Why bother having background checks at all?
It doesn't matter that the majority of mass shootings are done with hand guns when discussing assault weapons-targeted gun control (I misspoke and said "assault rifles"), assuming the hand gun used doesn't qualify, because the aim is to reduce the amount of people killed and wounded. "Assault weapon" doesn't really have a specific definition and is instead an umbrella term for a variety of guns with certain features.
My bringing up a gun theft was an example of a possible obstacle a mass killer could face that would make obtaining a gun more difficult. Stealing a gun from someone is more difficult than buying it from a retailer. I don't see how that's disputable. It's really weird that you're so hung up on it when it's so inconsequential to my argument.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostWhy is it that liberals have such a hard time having a civil discussion about guns?
Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Roy View PostPerhaps because conservatives keep avoiding the points we make and pretending we said things we didn't.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostPerhaps because conservatives keep avoiding the points we make and pretending we said things we didn't.
Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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Originally posted by Roy View PostPerhaps because conservatives keep avoiding the points we make and pretending we said things we didn't.
Roy, it's INSANE to think that, somehow, we're going to get rid of 300 MILLION guns, and in that process, criminals won't be able to get their hands on one.
There is just so much batpoop nuttery in the liberals' gun grab mentality.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostThat's a perfect illustration.
Yikes.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
Perhaps if you liberals stopped ignoring the gun laws already on the books in your zeal to grab guns, and stopped coming up with crazy ideas like "no bail", and letting criminals loose to commit more crimes...
Roy, it's INSANE to think that, somehow, we're going to get rid of 300 MILLION guns, and in that process, criminals won't be able to get their hands on one.
There is just so much batpoop nuttery in the liberals' gun grab mentality.
One of the biggest problems has been that the government doesn't want to enforce the laws on the books but rather keeps demanding tougher restrictions.
For instance take a look at background checks.
Since firearms dealers ask prospective buyers about prior convictions and the like even before they give them ATF Form 4473 to fill out (which starts the FBI check) and because the vast majority of those applicants who don't pass are rejected because of a prior criminal conviction, restraining order, are fugitives and the like, this actually qualifies as a federal crime -- a felony -- of submitting false information.
But, in one recent year of the approximately 80,000 people who were turned down as a result of a background check only 44 people were prosecuted. 44 out of 80,000.
In the first two years after the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) was first set up the Justice Department Inspector General discovered that only 154 people out of 120,000 denials were prosecuted.
Why isn't the government enforcing the laws already on the books rather than wanting new ones? Now, I'm sure a significant portion of those who are rejected didn't realize that they were violating the law (perhaps they didn't realize that their conviction was for a felony or that it happened so long ago that they "forgot") but that can hardly account for such a low prosecution rate.
One explanation was provided by then Vice President Joe Biden when he was asked about this in 2013 while talking to representatives from the National Rifle Association during a White House gun violence task force meeting. According to Jim Baker, the NRA's Director of Federal Affairs, Biden responded, "And to your point, Mr. Baker, regarding the lack of prosecutions on lying on Form 4473s, we simply don't have the time or manpower to prosecute everybody who lies on a form, that checks a wrong box, that answers a question inaccurately."
And it appears that, according to Justice Department data compiled by the Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse at Syracuse University (widely regarded as one of the best researchers on federal prosecution performances and trends), federal prosecutions of firearm violations in general dropped substantially during the Obama Administration[1]. This was verified by a study conducted by the Executive Office of U.S. Attorneys which found that there has been a 25% drop in the number of prosecutions of firearm violation cases by the Justice Department recommended by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATF) than the Bush Administration did.
So before we start passing new laws does it not seem reasonable that we actually start enforcing the laws we already have on the books and begin prosecuting those who willfully lie on federal forms trying to illegally obtain firearms?
As an aside I should note that the Democrats recently defeated an amendment to the proposed Bipartisan Background Checks Act of 2019 (H.R. 8) that alert law enforcement authorities when gun buyers fail the background check. Why? Because the provision would also check to see if the person trying to obtain a firearm was an illegal immigrant and if they were inform Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) about the illegal act (it's already a violation of federal law for illegals to purchase or possess firearms). It should also be noted that the amendment was based on language introduced by two House Democrats, David Cicilline (D-R.I.) and Jerrold Nadler (D-N.Y.), who is now chairman of the House Judiciary Committee. And yet both of them voted against the amendment[2].
So much for the left's claim that they want to keep guns out of the wrong hands.
1. A similar thing happened during the Clinton Administration. After working so hard to pass the Brady Law and the the Federal Assault Weapons Ban (which prohibited firearms based on their appearance rather than functionality) in 1993 and 1994 respectively of the 23,000 cases that had been referred for prosecution by the FBI, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives only arrested 56 people. One of Janet Reno's top aides even testified that they weren't all that interested in such prosecutions (enforcing the laws just passed). They appeared more interested in passing even more laws (which they would likely not enforce either).
2. Later, after the amendment was rejected Republicans employed an obscure rule called "motion to recommit," which allows the minority party to submit last-minute introductions of floor amendments and re-introduced the amendment and it managed to slip through. So how did the House Democratic leadership respond upon discovering this? They are now considering whether they should amend the rules to eliminate motions to recommit.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostPerhaps if you liberals stopped ignoring the gun laws already on the books in your zeal to grab guns, ...
I'm not ignoring any gun laws. I'm not even American.
... and stopped coming up with crazy ideas like "no bail", and letting criminals loose to commit more crimes...
Roy, it's INSANE to think that, somehow, we're going to get rid of 300 MILLION guns, and in that process, criminals won't be able to get their hands on one.
Oh, and its 400 million guns, not 300m. Y'all have more guns than people. Y'all have more guns than the entire world's armed forces combined. Yet you don't see this as a problem.
There is just so much batpoop nuttery in the liberals' gun grab mentality.
Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
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