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  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    English friends inform me that on British television there recently aired a drama about Anne Boleyn [again] which cast a black actress in the title role and that also on British television a new series based on the H E Bates books The Darling Buds of May is about to air. Some may recall the original British series that launched the career of Mrs Michael Douglas aka Catherine Zeta Jones. This new production has an actor of colour playing the part of an accountant who arrives in the village to investigate the Larkins' financial affairs and of course falls under the spell of Mariette Larkin.

    In my opinion these two productions suggest nothing more than tokenism disguised as “colour blind casting”. Or am I missing something?


    Why does a real [and white] historical character have to be played by an actor of colour? Should a white actor be cast to play Nelson Mandela or Rosa Parks? That would also be “colour-blind casting” but I can imagine the furore if such a casting decision took place.

    Why does a series based on novels set in rural Kent in the 1950s need a character played by an actor of colour? This is also an historical anachronism as it would have been extremely unlikely for a black accountant to be working in the UK at that period.

    Or is it me? Am I missing something? Are we not supposed to notice that the actor is of colour? Rather as the brilliant but octogenarian actor Ian McKellen has recently just reprised the role of Hamlet but we are not supposed to notice his age.

    I can fully understand why plays are re-imagined in other locations. An entirely black cast for an African Romeo and Juliet or Julius Caesar for example, or a moghul Richard III . After all Kurosawa brilliantly transferred Macbeth to feudal Japan but I do question why actors of colour are inserted into dramas for what appears to be no real apparent reason.

    I am beginning to wonder if colour-blind casting is in fact a front for a rather more distasteful aspect of paternalism with the casting of an actor of colour as nothing more than a metaphorical pat on the head to show other ethnic communities that the director, casting director, writer etc are all fully woke.


    I am just wondering when someone is going to produce a series about the Norse peoples along the lines of Vikings and have the entire cast made up of actors of colour. Or a Nazi drama with a black Hitler!
    I agree. I was amused when I saw a black actor playing Aaron Burr in Hamilton. Actually, many of the roles were played by "people of color." But this didn't bother me as much as the stupid script and horrible music. It was unbearable and I had to shut it off after about 15 minutes.

    Anyway, I'm glad you chimed in on this subject because I was wondering what Europeans thought about woke-ism - especially the American form - where black victimization is pandered to in every conceivable fashion.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Ronson View Post

      I agree. I was amused when I saw a black actor playing Aaron Burr in Hamilton. Actually, many of the roles were played by "people of color." But this didn't bother me as much as the stupid script and horrible music. It was unbearable and I had to shut it off after about 15 minutes.
      I admit I am not overly fond of many musicals, although there are a few I really like. Yet I thoroughly enjoy opera and operetta!

      Originally posted by Ronson View Post
      Anyway, I'm glad you chimed in on this subject because I was wondering what Europeans thought about woke-ism - especially the American form - where black victimization is pandered to in every conceivable fashion.
      Thank you for the comment but it is only my opinion I am not representing all of Europe! We must never forget the injustices experienced by people of colour but this [to my mind] soft paternalism I find mildly distasteful and I suspect some people of colour may do so as well.

      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        Thank you for the comment but it is only my opinion I am not representing all of Europe! We must never forget the injustices experienced by people of colour but this [to my mind] soft paternalism I find mildly distasteful and I suspect some people of colour may do so as well.
        Every once in a while - QUITE RARELY - you say something that makes me doubt, if only for a moment, my diagnosis of you as a .

        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          I can highly recommend the film. It's a little old now [1996] but it's not lost its power and its underlying premise is still relevant.
          Usually movies like that tend to have at least a relevant message even if the main conflict no longer is.

          Given the look of the recent Batman films they certainly have changed.

          A pleasant gift for fqans.
          1. I'm certainly grateful that we don't have Batman with his own Bat Credit Card anymore.

          2. Yes, it was a very nice thing to be able to get. It's always nice when a successful franchise gives something to their fans.

          No you didn't but a search on Youtube using the title of the site should bring it up.


          Very interesting.
          There is actually a lot of quality content on YouTube right now. I tend to watch a lot of something called "Storytime Animation" it's basically people telling stories from their life with animated characters. They do more than that on many of the channels, but that is some of the basics of what most of them do.

          Quite
          While I'm not always successful I try to be careful with my choice of words. Too many people tend to misunderstand what I am trying to say unless I am very, very precise in how I say it. Both in real life, and online. This has led to some people saying that I am overly concerned with accuracy, and in one case I was actually told I was "too objective". I still don't understand that one.

          I've not seen the trilogy and so cannot comment.
          I get that. I'll put it this way, out of everyone I have ever encountered talking about the movies, the only people that had any kind of major negative reaction were what I consider "purists" who would have only accepted the movies if they were 100% identical to the books. Probably my biggest complaints with the movie are that they made Legolas a little too good at everything, and Gimli a little too "dumb".

          I think that is what it comes down to. I have no problems with casting actors of colour but I do find what I often perceive [possibly wrongly] to be the "token black" attitude potentially demeaning.
          It happens so often, and I know that there are black people who do have a problem with it too. They'd much rather have new characters who are black than piggy back off of the success of older white characters. I agree with them. Then again I never really cared much about "representation". I don't care what a characters skin color, gender, sexual orientation etc. are. I will like them if they are well written.

          I shall keep a watch for it.

          Looking at the IMDB entry it sounds rather like a combination of some Terry Pratchett and some Asterix
          That is an interesting description for sure. I'm less familiar with Terry Pratchett, and would instead compare it to mixing Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern books mixed with Asterix.

          He is certainly an expert in his field.
          I will defer to your experience here.

          There appears to be the case from what I have read.
          Given how often I've seen "autistic" used as a slur I see the stigma all too often. I remember one time someone asked me during a video game through the chat "are you autistic or something" I responded with "what if I were autistic". He shut up pretty quickly after that.

          I have never really managed to get "into" graphic novels. I appreciate they can be very well done but it's not my type of fiction.
          Graphic novels comprise as many distinct genres as those that don't have pictures. Sci-fi, fantasy, super hero, romance, horror, etc. The first three are the ones you will probably here more about, but there is probably a graphic novel version of a great deal of preexisting novels at this point. So there probably is a graphic novel out there that meets your tastes as far as fiction, you just don't know it is out there.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Ronson View Post

            I agree. I was amused when I saw a black actor playing Aaron Burr in Hamilton. Actually, many of the roles were played by "people of color." But this didn't bother me as much as the stupid script and horrible music. It was unbearable and I had to shut it off after about 15 minutes.
            Hamilton gets a pass from me because it went all-out and embraced the race-swapping for everyone, making it part of the point of the thing. I feel that's much different than just changing the race of one or two characters for diversity points.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
              Hamilton gets a pass from me because it went all-out and embraced the race-swapping for everyone, making it part of the point of the thing. I feel that's much different than just changing the race of one or two characters for diversity points.
              My only glaring issue is that to those who support such swaps, it's often a one-way street. A similar movie/show about Malcom X and the black panthers all racially swapped to make it "more relatable" to the majority of Americans would be eaten alive before it ever got off the ground.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                Usually movies like that tend to have at least a relevant message even if the main conflict no longer is.
                It's one of those films that could transfer to the stage without really losing anything because it all takes place on the submarine.


                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                1. I'm certainly grateful that we don't have Batman with his own Bat Credit Card anymore.

                2. Yes, it was a very nice thing to be able to get. It's always nice when a successful franchise gives something to their fans.
                I have never heard of the Credit Card but a reward to fans is generally appreciated

                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                There is actually a lot of quality content on YouTube right now. I tend to watch a lot of something called "Storytime Animation" it's basically people telling stories from their life with animated characters. They do more than that on many of the channels, but that is some of the basics of what most of them do.
                You are correct about Youtube - so many interesting documentaries and talks have been uploaded - one could spend one's entire life on the channel!

                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                While I'm not always successful I try to be careful with my choice of words. Too many people tend to misunderstand what I am trying to say unless I am very, very precise in how I say it. Both in real life, and online. This has led to some people saying that I am overly concerned with accuracy, and in one case I was actually told I was "too objective". I still don't understand that one.
                In that I consider you to be very sensible. As I have pointed out to others when I have been accused of being a "Grammar Nazi" what we write on these boards is the only information our correspondents have. This medium does not permit other forms of communication [eye contact, facial expressions, body language, or intonation]. Our words are therefore extremely important and we cannot automatically know what someone else intended or meant. We can only know, and respond to, what they have written.

                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                I get that. I'll put it this way, out of everyone I have ever encountered talking about the movies, the only people that had any kind of major negative reaction were what I consider "purists" who would have only accepted the movies if they were 100% identical to the books. Probably my biggest complaints with the movie are that they made Legolas a little too good at everything, and Gimli a little too "dumb".
                And of course with a book we all have our imagined impressions of characters and scenes so any representation will fail for some. However, a movie adaptation of a novel should refrain from altering the narrative. Mr Bowdler tried that with his attempts to expurgate Shakespeare.

                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                It happens so often, and I know that there are black people who do have a problem with it too. They'd much rather have new characters who are black than piggy back off of the success of older white characters. I agree with them. Then again I never really cared much about "representation". I don't care what a characters skin color, gender, sexual orientation etc. are. I will like them if they are well written.
                That is a reasonable comment.

                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

                That is an interesting description for sure. I'm less familiar with Terry Pratchett, and would instead compare it to mixing Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern books mixed with Asterix.
                Well it is only an observation, I've yet to see the movie. However, both Pratchett and the Asterix graphic novels are among my favourites. I remember one particular Asterix book where the British, apart from using stereotypical upper class British phrases, insist on stopping every afternoon to drink their herbal infusion! That is such a common joke over here about the Brits and their tea-drinking.

                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                Given how often I've seen "autistic" used as a slur I see the stigma all too often. I remember one time someone asked me during a video game through the chat "are you autistic or something" I responded with "what if I were autistic". He shut up pretty quickly after that.
                Yes people like to use anonymity to make slurs and/or derogatory remarks about the personal life, intellectual capacities, or mental faculties of their correspondent. We see it here frequently.

                Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                Graphic novels comprise as many distinct genres as those that don't have pictures. Sci-fi, fantasy, super hero, romance, horror, etc. The first three are the ones you will probably here more about, but there is probably a graphic novel version of a great deal of preexisting novels at this point. So there probably is a graphic novel out there that meets your tastes as far as fiction, you just don't know it is out there.
                Well I like Asterix so I shall have to look more closely!

                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                  I agree. I was amused when I saw a black actor playing Aaron Burr in Hamilton. Actually, many of the roles were played by "people of color." But this didn't bother me as much as the stupid script and horrible music. It was unbearable and I had to shut it off after about 15 minutes.

                  Anyway, I'm glad you chimed in on this subject because I was wondering what Europeans thought about woke-ism - especially the American form - where black victimization is pandered to in every conceivable fashion.
                  Nice to see that I'm not the only one who found Hamilton to be terribly overrated.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Nice to see that I'm not the only one who found Hamilton to be terribly overrated.
                    I went in with low expectations anyway. I hate it when Hollywood (or the entertainment industry) attempts something historical. It's always loaded with revisionism. But that element was the least of its problems.

                    If Hamilton got a 1-star review, it was overrated IMO.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                      Hamilton gets a pass from me because it went all-out and embraced the race-swapping for everyone, making it part of the point of the thing. I feel that's much different than just changing the race of one or two characters for diversity points.
                      Well, OK. It doesn't come across as historical though, or even atmospheric of the time it is supposed to represent. So they might as well all worn sweatpants and tank-tops. All together, I thought it was a bad joke.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                        Well, OK. It doesn't come across as historical though, or even atmospheric of the time it is supposed to represent. So they might as well all worn sweatpants and tank-tops. All together, I thought it was a bad joke.
                        Did Washington come into the musical? And was he also played by a dancer/actor/singer of colour?
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          I admit I am not overly fond of many musicals, although there are a few I really like.
                          This was precisely what I meant awhile back about not being a fan of particular forms of music but still being able to appreciate it when preformed skillfully.

                          I'm no fan of musicals either but there will always be a place for My Fair Lady. And while the concept of being able to turn the cartoon South Park into a musical seems doomed to failure, I really have to hand it to them in that it was incredibly successful.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            This was precisely what I meant awhile back about not being a fan of particular forms of music but still being able to appreciate it when preformed skillfully.

                            I'm no fan of musicals either but there will always be a place for My Fair Lady. And while the concept of being able to turn the cartoon South Park into a musical seems doomed to failure, I really have to hand it to them in that it was incredibly successful.
                            Not forgetting their brilliant Book of Mormon.

                            I just do not like the music that is found in a lot of more recent musicals regardless of how skillfully it may be performed and I detest Lloyd Weber's music. In my opinion he leans to plagiarism and is the least talented member of his family.

                            I do like the musicals of Rogers and Hammerstein because they have good tunes, and I agree about My Fair Lady. although I am not overly fond of much of Lerner and Loewe's output. I also really like the classic Busby Berkeley musicals [Dames, 42nd Street, Footlights Parade, Gold Diggers of 1933] with the writing talents of Al Dubbin and Harry Warren. And of course Die Dreigroschenoper with Lotte Lenya and Harald Paulsen is among my all time classics.

                            However, my musical tastes are extremely eclectic.
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              Did Washington come into the musical? And was he also played by a dancer/actor/singer of colour?
                              Not in the first 15 minutes, which is when I shut it off. I don't know about after that.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                It's one of those films that could transfer to the stage without really losing anything because it all takes place on the submarine.
                                Yeah, many movies about conflicts like that can be changed in setting without losing their message.

                                I have never heard of the Credit Card but a reward to fans is generally appreciated
                                It was a really bad joke in one of the worse Batman movies. Batman is at a party and pulls out his "Bat credit card" and says "I never leave the Batcave without it". I believe it was a reference to certain credit card commercials at the time.

                                You are correct about Youtube - so many interesting documentaries and talks have been uploaded - one could spend one's entire life on the channel!
                                True, and there are also some really good new tv shows, and even a couple cartoons. I'm really hoping a show called Long Gone Gulch gets enough support to make more episodes. It only had the pilot so far, but I really liked it. It is a weird mashup of Western and fantasy with a lot of folklore creatures in the background. In just one short scene I saw numerous Yokai, the Mothman, the Flatwoods monster, a mummy, a sasquatch, and more. There is a different group making a sci-fi show called Murder Drones, in which AI drones are trying to live their lives after most if not all of humanity was wiped out. And for once it wasn't the AI that caused their destruction.

                                In that I consider you to be very sensible. As I have pointed out to others when I have been accused of being a "Grammar Nazi" what we write on these boards is the only information our correspondents have. This medium does not permit other forms of communication [eye contact, facial expressions, body language, or intonation]. Our words are therefore extremely important and we cannot automatically know what someone else intended or meant. We can only know, and respond to, what they have written.
                                That is true, but I know I tend to do better with text conversation. I can go over it repeatedly and consider the possible meanings, and then choose what appears to be the most likely meaning based on context.

                                And of course with a book we all have our imagined impressions of characters and scenes so any representation will fail for some. However, a movie adaptation of a novel should refrain from altering the narrative. Mr Bowdler tried that with his attempts to expurgate Shakespeare.
                                To an extent I agree with not changing the narrative. For the sake of time considerations sometimes things have to be cut. As long as you don't remove something very important to understanding the story this is fine. It's a pretty fine line to walk if you are going to have a decent movie based on a book.

                                That is a reasonable comment.
                                It seems to be a noisy minority that think you need to check off a list of minorities and traits for a work to be good.

                                Well it is only an observation, I've yet to see the movie. However, both Pratchett and the Asterix graphic novels are among my favourites. I remember one particular Asterix book where the British, apart from using stereotypical upper class British phrases, insist on stopping every afternoon to drink their herbal infusion! That is such a common joke over here about the Brits and their tea-drinking.

                                I don't know a lot about Asterix, but what little I have seen has generally been good. A few years ago I was surprised to find out they had numerous video games set in that world. The humor isn't quite the same in How To Train Your Dragon as Asterix. How to Train Your Dragon does have humor, and it can be rather clever. It doesn't have quite the energy Asterix does. How to Train Your Dragon isn't primarily about humor either. Certainly nothing on the level of the Romans playing musical chairs to see who is sent as a spy.

                                I started reading some of Asterix online just recently to make sure I was remembering it right. I'm liking what I see. It makes me think of Looney Tunes and Adventures of the Gummi Bears mixed.

                                Yes people like to use anonymity to make slurs and/or derogatory remarks about the personal life, intellectual capacities, or mental faculties of their correspondent. We see it here frequently.
                                I see it everywhere quite frequently. While I prefer a more irenic approach, I do think that insults* have their place. It really depends on the situation. I usually save it until after I've given up on a person ever listening to a more reasonable discussion.

                                Well I like Asterix so I shall have to look more closely!
                                I don't want you to go into the movie with the wrong idea. There are some clever and funny moments in the movie, and I still think it is worth watching for pretty much anyone.

                                *Although I think most people just go for the easiest possible one instead of being creative. Where is the fun in that?

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