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When a Man (used to be a woman) Comes to Church

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  • #46
    It's OT to the OP, but since it's come up several times, I'll opine that I find the tat-phobia, as expressed, is legalistic and stupid. Certainly tats that are overtly profane, satanic, or gang-oriented should be discouraged, and likewise tramp stamps and others provocative by their location. But people who enjoy tasteful, quality body art should not be derided for it.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Federalist.

    Nationalist Christian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

    Justice for Matthew Perna!

    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

    Comment


    • #47
      As to the OP, that is a predicament. Biblically, to "repent" entails a change of behavior or lifestyle. But it's not like this person is just a lesbian or cross-dresser who can stop the associated behaviors. S/he is physically a different person now, and married with a (adopted) child. It is possible to "de-transition," but very difficult, and AFAIK only ever partially successful. What kind of "repentance" can happen that would not be even more harmful to the "guy" and his family?
      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

      Beige Federalist.

      Nationalist Christian.

      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

      Justice for Matthew Perna!

      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
        Based on your OP I did not see what caused the concern. I assumed that counsellors had their own accommodation and were there merely in a "pastoral" capacity.
        Nope - counselors and kids are with each other 24 hours a day for the week, including showers.

        However, now that you have qualified it re adults sharing sleeping accommodation with young people - I recognise your [and that church's concern] but I do not necessarily see a concern.

        You wrote that "With all the child molestation cases in church camps, boy scout camps, and the vulnerability of children -- there are always precautions that need to be taken"
        I DID!

        Given that [premised on the scandals that come to public attention] molestation cases among church and youth leaders are not necessarily about heterosexual abuse, I do not know you [or the church] consider that adult men sleeping with adolescents and younger boys reduces the risk.
        I think the shock factor was what made this so unique --- nobody knew that the man used to be a woman, and he never disclosed it. He, after the fact, realizes that was a terrible problem on his part.
        So, keep in mind, the readers here have the benefit of knowing that it is all working out, but at the time of the revelation, it was not known that this man might be a pervert, or an imposter, or a pedophile, or.... and it was a "first ever" type of event, not even having heard of such a thing ever before.

        Edited to add: Furthermore this person identified as a man, was married to a woman, and had a child [adopted]. Therefore why would this person's sexual predilections be anymore of a risk than those of the biological male leaders in the church group? This person [like] them preferred women.
        As I said - at the time the revelation was made - he was at camp with a bunch of youth sleeping in the bunkhouse with a bunch of boys, and we had no idea what his motivations or intentions were, and no way of knowing.

        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #49
          I think what seems to be getting lost here is the fact that this man didn't stop to think what the reaction might be if it was revealed that he was transgendered, and before anybody really got to know him, he was off on a trip with a bunch of the church's youth.

          Nobody knew (and, quite honestly, still don't) if his 'wife' was also transgendered, or if there was anything else strange about this couple. The boy has some social awkwardness, but was still accepted by the youth.

          In the thread that triggered my starting this one, there was some discussion about the fact that often there is extensive surgery, only to discover that didn't 'fix the problem', but creates more problems.

          Nobody knew - there are so many pieces of this puzzle that were unknowns.

          The fact is that the church is working through it, and everybody seems to have learned some valuable lessons.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

            It was stupid, but the Age of Internet has facilitated impulsive gossip. I can easily imagine myself, especially in younger days, being shocked and doing something like that before thinking it through.
            For some reason, I have long felt it my responsibility to teach whatever church I'm in the proper way to handle internal problems, as prescribed by Jesus in Matt 18:15-17. But, yeah, we still tend to do stupid stuff when faced with surprises like this.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
              As to the OP, that is a predicament. Biblically, to "repent" entails a change of behavior or lifestyle. But it's not like this person is just a lesbian or cross-dresser who can stop the associated behaviors. S/he is physically a different person now, and married with a (adopted) child. It is possible to "de-transition," but very difficult, and AFAIK only ever partially successful. What kind of "repentance" can happen that would not be even more harmful to the "guy" and his family?
              Way to go right to the heart of the problem! Yeah, so far, the person has been very apologetic to the church for not disclosing (or choosing to go to camp without disclosing) his situation, and the person who started the commotion with the e-blast has repented. (He can't unsend the email, but he can certainly express sorrow and regret, which he did)

              The man has actually admitted he should not have done the transition, but - as is obvious - there is no "going back" without creating a whole new set of problems.

              And there's a backdrop --- those who know me also know that I spent a good bit of time a few years ago testifying before the Texas Senate on the Religious Liberty challenges we were facing in Texas. During that time, a young homosexual man testified ON OUR BEHALF that some of his own 'associates' were actively planning to seek membership in local churches, or to schedule same sex weddings, for the sole purpose of being rejected and SUING the church.

              With that still in mind, and the fact that there had been several such attempts in the churches of our Association, this whole "same sex / transgender" issue was fresh on the minds of churches and pastors.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                Nope - counselors and kids are with each other 24 hours a day for the week, including showers.
                Why for 24 hours a day? Are the kids not be trusted without adult supervision?

                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                I think the shock factor was what made this so unique --- nobody knew that the man used to be a woman, and he never disclosed it. He, after the fact, realizes that was a terrible problem on his part.
                So, keep in mind, the readers here have the benefit of knowing that it is all working out, but at the time of the revelation, it was not known that this man might be a pervert, or an imposter, or a pedophile, or.... and it was a "first ever" type of event, not even having heard of such a thing ever before.
                I understand your concerns but did the possibility of this person perchance being a paedophile or pervert only arise AFTER his transgenderism was discovered? Were no concerns raised prior to that? Do your youth groups/churches not do any kind of background checks on volunteers?

                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post


                As I said - at the time the revelation was made - he was at camp with a bunch of youth sleeping in the bunkhouse with a bunch of boys, and we had no idea what his motivations or intentions were, and no way of knowing.
                You had no idea either way. A biological man might also have had nefarious intentions on the boys. It's not exactly unknown among church and/or youth leaders, is it?
                Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 09-26-2021, 08:05 AM.
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  Why for 24 hours a day? Are the kids not be trusted without adult supervision?
                  They are off alone, isolated, at a camp. That's what it means by 24/7.

                  Further, unlike my era when kids hoped on their bikes at somewhere around 9 AM and mothers said to be home by dinner/before dark, there are now a lot of legal considerations surrounding taking a bunch of kids somewhere and not providing adequate supervision.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    They are off alone, isolated, at a camp. That's what it means by 24/7.
                    Yes and? Do these young people have no time without some adult being present? That seems rather obsessive.

                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Further, unlike my era when kids hoped on their bikes at somewhere around 9 AM and mothers said to be home by dinner/before dark, there are now a lot of legal considerations surrounding taking a bunch of kids somewhere and not providing adequate supervision.
                    A child going out with their friends for the day is not quite the same as an organised school/youth/church activity.

                    Hence my question as to whether any background checks are run on volunteers
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      Yes and? Do these young people have no time without some adult being present? That seems rather obsessive.
                      You seem to envision an adult hiding behind every tree watching.

                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      A child going out with their friends for the day is not quite the same as an organised school/youth/church activity.

                      Hence my question as to whether any background checks are run on volunteers
                      And if mother let her kid out all day today she could very well expect a visit from protective services seeing if she's an unfit mother.

                      The point is that in our society today if you don't CYA and something happens you are wide open for the inevitable law suit -- or even criminal charges.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        You seem to envision an adult hiding behind every tree watching.


                        And if mother let her kid out all day today she could very well expect a visit from protective services seeing if she's an unfit mother.

                        The point is that in our society today if you don't CYA and something happens you are wide open for the inevitable law suit -- or even criminal charges.
                        That rather ignores my question.

                        Do these various churches not run any kind of background checks on volunteers involved in any capacity with minors [or for that matter the elderly and/or disabled]?
                        "It ain't necessarily so
                        The things that you're liable
                        To read in the Bible
                        It ain't necessarily so
                        ."

                        Sportin' Life
                        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          You seem to envision an adult hiding behind every tree watching.
                          That is how Cow Poke presented it, including showers and sleeping quarters.


                          So, once again do these churches not run any kind of background checks on their volunteers?
                          "It ain't necessarily so
                          The things that you're liable
                          To read in the Bible
                          It ain't necessarily so
                          ."

                          Sportin' Life
                          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            That is how Cow Poke presented it, including showers and sleeping quarters.


                            So, once again do these churches not run any kind of background checks on their volunteers?
                            Can't work with vulnerable groups here without a police check - but I doubt that the check would bring up anything of that nature: it identifies only the lack of known threats.
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              Why for 24 hours a day? Are the kids not be trusted without adult supervision?
                              The camp experience is to get as much use out of the 5 days as practical - meals are eaten together, games are played together, shower time is shared, a common dorm is slept in (girls in one - boys in the other) - it's not that they're "not trusted", but, then, again, they're kids!

                              I understand your concerns but did the possibility of this person perchance being a paedophile or pervert only arise AFTER his transgenderism was discovered? Were no concerns raised prior to that? Do your youth groups/churches not do any kind of background checks on volunteers?
                              He spoke like a man, dressed like a man, acted like a man, had a full beard like a man --- there was absolutely no indication he had not always been a man.
                              So, it was quite a shock to discover he had been a woman.

                              Backgrounds checks are required, but for criminal activity and sexual misconduct, neither of which would have shown up in his background check. In this case, however, I don't believe a background check was performed due to the spontaneity of his volunteering at the last minute to go with the camp group.

                              You had no idea either way. A biological man might also have had nefarious intentions on the boys. It's not exactly unknown among church and/or youth leaders, is it?
                              When you believe somebody is a man, and he's off at camp with your kids, and you suddenly discover through his social media that he was a woman, it's not the least bit surprising that there were serious questions.

                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                                That rather ignores my question.

                                Do these various churches not run any kind of background checks on volunteers involved in any capacity with minors [or for that matter the elderly and/or disabled]?
                                I answered this one.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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