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When a Man (used to be a woman) Comes to Church

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  • #16
    The poster of the op has requested that there be no derail of this thread.

    If CP wishes to explain the point of the op, he will do so.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
      An interesting case but the reaction seems rather overblown.
      "The reaction"? That the pastor had the Grace to sit down with this guy and encourage him to stay, and work through this?

      Is it imperative that a counsellor be of the same biological sex? What was the precise nature of the role of counsellor at this camp?
      With all the child molestation cases in church camps, boy scout camps, and the vulnerability of children -- there are always precautions that need to be taken.

      It is hardly unknown for other counsellors as well as therapists. analysts etc. to work with patients of both sexes.
      Perhaps you should take your own advice to [to use a phrase] look before you leap.
      Counselors and therapists do not sleep in the same tents or cabins as the children they serve, or spend 24 hours a day with them for a week.

      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

        "The reaction"? That the pastor had the Grace to sit down with this guy and encourage him to stay, and work through this?



        With all the child molestation cases in church camps, boy scout camps, and the vulnerability of children -- there are always precautions that need to be taken.



        Perhaps you should take your own advice to [to use a phrase] look before you leap.
        Counselors and therapists do not sleep in the same tents or cabins as the children they serve, or spend 24 hours a day with them for a week.
        And the other dilemma, as has been discussed here, is the balance between confronting the sinner in the church and bringing them to repentance, and putting them out.


        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          I agree in that I'm loathe to kick anyone out in that I really believe that a church is like a hospital for sinners.
          Absolutely, and we should be welcoming them to come hear the Gospel.

          There is a difference between a person in a position of authority and another member who isn't.
          It's actually three tiers in my opinion, and I'm sure you'd agree ----

          A) anybody can come and attend, as long as they're not disruptive
          2) members have more rights and privileges than "attenders" (voting in church business meetings, etc)
          C) some members have greater rights and privileges AND responsibilities than other members - deacons, teachers, elders, etc

          There is a difference between continuing in sin and flaunting your lifestyle.
          And I think that's the biggest challenge here - a homosexual man can attend and not continue living a homosexual lifestyle.
          But a person who has transitioned from a woman to a man cannot become a woman again without some tremendous difficulties.

          I think those two factors ought to always be kept in mind before proceeding with how to deal with such members.
          And this church made the error of allowing a non-member to serve as a counselor (basically, an 'officer of the church' to a degree) without vetting him.
          But who on earth would have thought to ask, "oh, by the way, were you ever a member of the opposite sex"?


          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by mossrose View Post

            And the other dilemma, as has been discussed here, is the balance between confronting the sinner in the church and bringing them to repentance, and putting them out.
            Here's what complicates this....

            In the eyes of this person, he didn't see what he did as sin.
            He thought he was solving a severe problem, and had moved past that.
            As hard as it is for me to believe that, the guy seems absolutely sincere.

            It was only after biblical counseling that the man began to see that he did wrong.

            What remains is "what now?".
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
              The poster of the op has requested that there be no derail of this thread.

              If CP wishes to explain the point of the op, he will do so.
              I did - but H_A needs to tread very lightly.
              She initiated this as it APPEARED we had a rare moment of common ground.

              No "adult male taking baths with little girl" crap here - but if she wants to discuss this seriously and respectfully, she may contiue.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                Absolutely, and we should be welcoming them to come hear the Gospel.



                It's actually three tiers in my opinion, and I'm sure you'd agree ----

                A) anybody can come and attend, as long as they're not disruptive
                2) members have more rights and privileges than "attenders" (voting in church business meetings, etc)
                C) some members have greater rights and privileges AND responsibilities than other members - deacons, teachers, elders, etc



                And I think that's the biggest challenge here - a homosexual man can attend and not continue living a homosexual lifestyle.
                But a person who has transitioned from a woman to a man cannot become a woman again without some tremendous difficulties.




                And this church made the error of allowing a non-member to serve as a counselor (basically, an 'officer of the church' to a degree) without vetting him.
                But who on earth would have thought to ask, "oh, by the way, were you ever a member of the opposite sex"?
                The only area of possible disagreement is the bolded section. That was in response to

                There is a difference between continuing in sin and flaunting your lifestyle


                With that, I agree with seer about the lesbian couple who had attended his church. I would welcome someone even if they continued living in a homosexual lifestyle just as long as they didn't flaunt it or advocate for it. Much the same with the hard core alcoholic. I wouldn't ban them from the church if they continued drinking, but if they constantly held big parties, always trying to get others to "drink up" passed out during service because they're still drunk, and the like, then that would be a problem. Same with a gay person who performs as a crossdresser or participates in a gay rights parade.

                But even there I'm iffy, especially if they really are seeking God. If that is truly the case I don't want to be a stumbling block.

                And again, for pastors/ministers/priests, it is a whole 'nuther ball game. Likewise deacons and Sunday school teachers. Leadership positions need to be filled by folks who can also lead by example and not of the do as I say not as I do variety. Although, a reformed addict or alcoholic etc. is different.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  The only area of possible disagreement is the bolded section....
                  "and not flaunt it" --- I'll buy that. I can't 'know' that they're living in sin if they come and attend church and don't project any kind of...

                  yeah.

                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                    Here's what complicates this....

                    In the eyes of this person, he didn't see what he did as sin.
                    He thought he was solving a severe problem, and had moved past that.
                    As hard as it is for me to believe that, the guy seems absolutely sincere.

                    It was only after biblical counseling that the man began to see that he did wrong.

                    What remains is "what now?".
                    I know. It’s not like this person was defiant when you spoke to him. The repentance seems to be there, but, how is it corrected?



                    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                      "The reaction"? That the pastor had the Grace to sit down with this guy and encourage him to stay, and work through this?



                      With all the child molestation cases in church camps, boy scout camps, and the vulnerability of children -- there are always precautions that need to be taken.



                      Perhaps you should take your own advice to [to use a phrase] look before you leap.
                      Counselors and therapists do not sleep in the same tents or cabins as the children they serve, or spend 24 hours a day with them for a week.
                      You could have left out the above and simply addressed the question in my first reply to this thread "What was the precise nature of the role of counsellor at this camp?"
                      Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 09-25-2021, 11:15 AM.
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                        The way I see it, treating people as welcome guests is not a problem, and proper conduct. What they do about the hospitality is up to them. Until now I hadn't given the idea of participation in classes any thought - so it is a matter to investigate.
                        It was a surprise that they came to the class....most newcomers start attendance with the morning service. Now we did have a few of those, and afaik they all respected the order of service....no display of affection etc.

                        The OP's situation is very unique for now...but how frequently will it happen in the future? How many repentant people will face this question? Tattoos are discouraged in our church because of the strong link to gang culture, but we don't make our people disappear the tattoos they walk in with. Does CP's situation compare to this?
                        Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          When a person becomes born again, they become a new creature and old things have passed away, so perhaps this will be a good way to view all those who have gender issues and who have come to Christ and to church? Putting on a new nature one that is submitted to Christ.

                          People who are seeking the Lord should surely come as they are, but once they become born again and wish to be part of the family of God in a church, then there are certain requirements for this privilege.



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                          • #28
                            What happened to the person who sent the email blast?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Psychic Missile View Post
                              What happened to the person who sent the email blast?
                              It is an interesting question: on the face of it, the person concerned stepped outside the boundaries of fair dealing, unless an approach had first been made to church leadership without result.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by mossrose View Post

                                I know. It’s not like this person was defiant when you spoke to him. The repentance seems to be there, but, how is it corrected?
                                That is a work in progress, for which we are praying for Divine Wisdom.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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