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  • #31
    Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
    My general opinion on pronouns is this:

    Lets keep stuff down to 3 sets. He/him, She/Her, They/Them.

    We should do our best to minimize dissonance. It is reasonable to expect people to use the pronoun of the gender that someone presents themselves as. Someone presenting themselves to the world as a man? He/Him. A woman? She/Her. Inconsistent, back and forth, entirely mixed? They/Them.

    What's not reasonable is to expect the population at large to change their basic speaking congnition process. Expecting that cognitive change is unrealistic and unreasonable. It is not reasonable to invent new pronouns and expect people to seamlessly use them. It's not reasonable to force cognitive dissonance when speaking about someone who's pronoun doesn't match what they put themselves forward as. It invites mistakes and offense. The same goes for the recently invented pronouns. It's not reasonable to expect the population to think or even use them. Nor is it reasonable to expect people to essentially keep a catalogue of people and what pronoun they want to use. We already recognize that remembering people's names is a skill not everyone has, and expecting that compounding that with extra details people need to remember is not reasonable.
    Agreed.

    It's basic politeness.

    But non-widespread variations beyond the basic three of him/her/they is getting a bit carried away.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      Agreed.

      It's basic politeness.

      But non-widespread variations beyond the basic three of him/her/they is getting a bit carried away.
      In the nineteenth century, someone proposed "thone" (this/that one)
      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        wordist!

        If I can declare that I'm a woman in stark contrast to the biological absurdity of such a claim, I can certainly declare master is a pronoun

        Anywho... I always thought it can also be a verb or adjective as well.
        As in, "I would like to master a new skill, maybe knitting".


        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
          As in, "I would like to master a new skill, maybe knitting".
          I'm just saying if some people can force others to use their preferred pronoun, and that I suppose includes those who use zim and zir, then I ought to be able to use an actual word as one.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            I'm just saying if some people can force others to use their preferred pronoun, and that I suppose includes those who use zim and zir, then I ought to be able to use an actual word as one.
            That, too!


            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              The only problem being that "Master" is not a pronoun. It is a noun.

              So? 'Zhe' and 'zim' are not pronouns either, they are made up words yet people use them as their personal pronouns. A pronoun is just something to refer to another noun.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                So? 'Zhe' and 'zim' are not pronouns either, they are made up words yet people use them as their personal pronouns. A pronoun is just something to refer to another noun.
                Master is not a made up word.

                A pronoun is not "something to refer to another noun".

                A pronoun takes the place of a noun - the clue is in the name. Pro - in place of and nomen - name.
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                  Master is not a made up word.

                  A pronoun is not "something to refer to another noun".

                  A pronoun takes the place of a noun - the clue is in the name. Pro - in place of and nomen - name.
                  Language is fluid. If we can create ze/zir and declare them pronouns, we can just as easily declare "master" has a pronoun form.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                    Language is fluid. If we can create ze/zir and declare them pronouns, we can just as easily declare "master" has a pronoun form.
                    You can declare what you like. It does not follow that what you declare is sensible or will be universally accepted.
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                      You can declare what you like. It does not follow that what you declare is sensible or will be universally accepted.
                      Interesting comment there. I agree with you. Not every declared, artificial change to language needs to be universally accepted. I know "Latinx" has been rejected by many in the hispanic community. Ze/Zir doesn't seem to be picking up steam either, no matter how many people have tried to force the change.

                      But, at the same time, if someone declares that their pronouns are ze/zir, and expect people to use them, there's no reason sparko can't do the same with Master.

                      It's the same way that the church of satan declares whatever liberal policy they support, or exemption to conservative policy they dislike to be a part of their religion, even though they are obviously not an actual church or actual religion and are deliberately using such things to be a parody of actual religion.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        You can declare what you like. It does not follow that what you declare is sensible or will be universally accepted.
                        But if you don't "accept" it you will be punished.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          Master is not a made up word.
                          So? If someone can use a made up word as their pronoun, then someone else can use an actual word as theirs. And if you don't agree you will be accused of hate speech!

                          A pronoun is not "something to refer to another noun".

                          A pronoun takes the place of a noun - the clue is in the name. Pro - in place of and nomen - name.
                          What is a pronoun?
                          A pronoun is a word that is used instead of a noun or noun phrase. Pronouns refer to either a noun that has already been mentioned or to a noun that does not need to be named specifically.
                          Last edited by Sparko; 09-24-2021, 07:45 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                            What is a pronoun?
                            A pronoun is a word that is used instead of a noun or noun phrase. Pronouns refer to either a noun that has already been mentioned or to a noun that does not need to be named specifically.
                            Recommend avoiding going down this path, it's an obvious path to a derail.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                              Interesting comment there. I agree with you. Not every declared, artificial change to language needs to be universally accepted. I know "Latinx" has been rejected by many in the hispanic community. Ze/Zir doesn't seem to be picking up steam either, no matter how many people have tried to force the change.

                              But, at the same time, if someone declares that their pronouns are ze/zir, and expect people to use them, there's no reason sparko can't do the same with Master.

                              It's the same way that the church of satan declares whatever liberal policy they support, or exemption to conservative policy they dislike to be a part of their religion, even though they are obviously not an actual church or actual religion and are deliberately using such things to be a parody of actual religion.
                              He can certainly be acknowledged as Master but it won't be a pronoun, in that context it would be a title - like Lord. Unless we abandon all previous definitions of word classes and adopt Humpty Dumpty's stratagem:

                              When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                                He can certainly be acknowledged as Master but it won't be a pronoun, in that context it would be a title - like Lord. Unless we abandon all previous definitions of word classes and adopt Humpty Dumpty's stratagem:

                                When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
                                Master can declare it a pronoun if master wants to. The word can work as much as a pronoun as ze/zir.

                                Comment

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