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Irondome Defunding

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  • #31
    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    And yet this "ethnic cleansing" is only taking place in one of two areas which should, if everything was solely in Israel's hands, be treated in the same way.
    It's taking place in all of Palestine at the hands of the Israli government.


    Honestly it's rather mindboggling how any Christian could stand by and support Israel and its actions and abuses of their own fellow Christians (maybe it's that Christians don't realize there are many Christian Palestinians, all off whom are treated the same way as Muslim Palestinians? They are, and they are often the focus of severe abuses by Jewish Israeli settlers, including graffiti on churches cursing Jesus, destruction of property, prevention of them from being able to go to Bethlehem, etc), and to see those Christians here in the US defend or try to downplay Israel's behaviors in one breath, while expressing horror and condemnation toward, say, China's treatment of Christians, or heck, even the burning of churches in Canada the last few months or the crackdown by government on in-person worship at churches in some US states and in Canada, etc.

    But then the even more mind-boggling is that the people here and elsewhere who would be the loudest against covid restrictions, against checkpoints preventing travel if you are unvaccinated, etc., etc., will sit with a straight face and defend Israel's behaviors which are far worse than that. Do you even understand how hard it is to even go about daily life as a Palestinian under Israeli control? If someone were to impose those levels of restrictions here, we'd see outright rebellion. The silence when it's someone else (at least when it's not in a white western country - because we've seen outrage expressed over New Zealand's policies and Australia's...... )is very telling.
    Last edited by Gondwanaland; 09-23-2021, 11:59 AM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

      WOw, I'd never have pegged you for being so dense that you think opposing Israel's policies of apartheid and ethnic cleansing against the Palestinians makes one an 'anti-semite'. Now that's a level of brainwashing that takes some effort to achieve. Here's a hint: actual Israelis, as well as Jews around the world, oppose what the country has been doing for decades. That doesn't make them self-hating anti-semites, that makes them human beings with a working conscience and the ability to recognize wrongful and atrocious acts by a government. But thanks for showing how far down the rabbithole you are that your kneejerk response to even the slightest criticism of Israel is "you're an anti-Semite". Very revealing.
      agreed: particularly with regard to the bolded section in red.

      It's taking place in all of Palestine at the hands of the Israli government.
      Israeli settlement is not permitted in the Gaza strip (last I heard); Israeli troops are usually not present in the Gaza strip - the exception being when an attack has been launched against Israel (last I heard); residents of the Gaza strip have relatively free access to Israel - except in time of open hostile action or active terrorist threat origination in the Gaza Strip (last I heard); Mosques and Churches are permitted to openly function in Israel.

      Honestly it's rather mindboggling how any Christian could stand by and support Israel and its actions and abuses of their own fellow Christians
      Your objection to being labelled anti-Semite might be reflected back at you on this one, depending on whom you are addressing. Noting that Israel has a tiger by the tail does not indicated pro-Israeli attitudes without regard for the cons.

      For a broader perspective:
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

        Having an ally in the region doesn't mean we have to be their sugar daddy while they ethnically cleanse and put in place an apartheid state.
        Good thing they aren't doing that then.

        And the iron dome protects everyone under it, not just the Israelis. If Hamas and the other terrorists would stop bombing and attacking Israel, they wouldn't need to have it in the first place.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          agreed: particularly with regard to the bolded section in red.



          Israeli settlement is not permitted in the Gaza strip (last I heard); Israeli troops are usually not present in the Gaza strip - the exception being when an attack has been launched against Israel (last I heard); residents of the Gaza strip have relatively free access to Israel - except in time of open hostile action or active terrorist threat origination in the Gaza Strip (last I heard); Mosques and Churches are permitted to openly function in Israel.
          They don't have free access to Israel, no. Israel is regularly bombing infrastructure to oblivion in Gaza. The latest outbreak of violence was Netanyahu trying to remain in power by bombing more Palestinians into smithereens. That's ethnic cleansing at its most extreme.


          Your objection to being labelled anti-Semite might be reflected back at you on this one, depending on whom you are addressing. Noting that Israel has a tiger by the tail does not indicated pro-Israeli attitudes without regard for the cons.

          For a broader perspective:
          Not particularly. I'm addressing any Christian who defends Israel's actions or tries to downplay them or tries to victim blame the people being oppressed. That does not make one an anti-semite.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post

            Good thing they aren't doing that then.

            And the iron dome protects everyone under it, not just the Israelis..
            They're doing both. Or are you going to be some sort of Truther and deny the Israeli bulldozing of Palestinian homes and businesses to put in place Jewish settlements? Are you going to deny the apartheid policies of Israel? Really? Actual Jewish South Africans who lived through Apartheid and who fought against the Apartheid government, who now see those same sorts of policies that they shed blood sweat and tears to overturn in their own country, now being enforced against the Palestinians..... they're just stupid and wrong and don't know what they're talking about, huh?

            If Hamas and the other terrorists would stop bombing and attacking Israel, they wouldn't need to have it in the first place
            If Israel would stop stealing land and murdering htousands of Palestinians, such 'terrorists' would not have the support that they have. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. If some other country was doing to the US what Israel is doing to Palestinians, we both know you and I would be the 'terrorists' fighting against them, and so would any other red-blooded American.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
              ...ethnic cleansing...
              "You keep using that term. I do not think it means what you think it means."
              -Inigo Montoya
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                "You keep using that term. I do not think it means what you think it means."
                -Inigo Montoya
                I know exactly what it means, son. Perhaps you should educate yourself, H_A. I'll help you out, even.

                Let's go with a super simple Wikipedia definition for ya.

                "Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, often with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. Along with direct removal, such as extermination, deportation or population transfer, it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction."

                SO lesse:

                1. systematic forced removal of ethnic group - Check off that box, unless you want to deny the bulldozing of Palestinian homes and businesses, destruction of their olive trees that they grow for sale of olives and olive oil, etc.

                2. Intent of making the region ethnically homogenous - Check of that box - the bulldozing of those homes and businesses is done to set up Jewish settlements (those Jewish settlers are known for terrorizing Islamic and Christian Palestinians, BTW)

                3. Direct removal: check off that box, they're directly forcing them off their lands and out of their homes and even bulldozing people who stand in the way.

                4. indirect methods: check off that box with the property destruction, arson, destruction of agriculture, shutting off of water, checkpoints to even leave your own village and travel across your own country, requirements of permits to farm your own land, requirements of getting a permit to even travel etc.

                So looks like it checks all the boxes pretty darn firmly. Maybe you should read a book. Preferably a dictionary, given you want to claim someone doesn't know what a word means when it's clear that it is you that does not grasp the word meaning.
                Last edited by Gondwanaland; 09-23-2021, 12:48 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                  I know exactly what it means, son. Perhaps you should educate yourself, H_A. I'll help you out, even.

                  Let's go with a super simple Wikipedia definition for ya.

                  "Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, often with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. Along with direct removal, such as extermination, deportation or population transfer, it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction."

                  SO lesse:

                  1. systematic forced removal of ethnic group - Check off that box, unless you want to deny the bulldozing of Palestinian homes and businesses, destruction of their olive trees that they grow for sale of olives and olive oil, etc.

                  2. Intent of making the region ethnically homogenous - Check of that box - the bulldozing of those homes and businesses is done to set up Jewish settlements (those Jewish settlers are known for terrorizing Islamic and Christian Palestinians, BTW)

                  3. Direct removal: check off that box, they're directly forcing them off their lands and out of their homes and even bulldozing people who stand in the way.

                  4. indirect methods: check off that box with the property destruction, arson, destruction of agriculture, shutting off of water, checkpoints to even leave your own village and travel across your own country, requirements of permits to farm your own land, requirements of getting a permit to even travel etc.

                  So looks like it checks all the boxes pretty darn firmly. Maybe you should read a book. Preferably a dictionary, given you want to claim someone doesn't know what a word means when it's clear that it is you that does not grasp the word meaning.
                  And yet - Israel is not engaged in ethnic cleansing of the Gaza strip, and Egypt closed their border with Palestine with occasional exceptions. Might there be something about the Palestinians underlying Israel's hostility?
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    I thought the Palestinians are the ones who wanted to be separate from the Israelis? As far as I know, the Israelis are happy to let everyone live together as Israeli citizens.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      I thought the Palestinians are the ones who wanted to be separate from the Israelis? As far as I know, the Israelis are happy to let everyone live together as Israeli citizens.
                      Palestine is annexed territory with good reason. While the reason is no longer in play - the influential parties concerned on both sides haven't got the memo.

                      For the most part, the Arab world contents itself with no more than the occasional muttering about Jewish actions in Palestine, and that should be of deemed significant by anyone with even a modicum of interest. Egypt closed their border with Palestine, and Egypt put an end to tunneling that was done to circumvent the closure (though I believe Israel did do some of it). The Arab response to the situation says something - but I'm not sure what.

                      The "where are your Jews" speech(es) underscore the historical reasons for the annexation of Palestine.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                        And yet - Israel is not engaged in ethnic cleansing of the Gaza strip, and Egypt closed their border with Palestine with occasional exceptions. Might there be something about the Palestinians underlying Israel's hostility?
                        Incorrect. They regularly raze Gazan buildings via bombing, destroy sanitation and water facilities, kill thousands, and have a literal blockade to prevent Gaza from getting materials to rebuild even basic facilities and places to live (and then a few years ago when a flotilla of people from all over the world made way toward Gaza to bring materials to them and bring attention to the blockade, Israeli military forces boarded their boats and murdered several people - 9 if memory serves me right on the boats). That's right there under the indirect method, bud.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          I thought the Palestinians are the ones who wanted to be separate from the Israelis? As far as I know, the Israelis are happy to let everyone live together as Israeli citizens.
                          No, they're 'happy' to have second class citizens that don't have the same rights as Jewish Israelis.
                          https://www.jstor.org/stable/43946930

                          https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...iety-quicktake

                          https://abcnews.go.com/International...ry?id=77741627

                          Israel has made it more than clear that if they all 'live together as Israeli citizens', then some citizens will be more 'equal' than others.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                            Incorrect. They regularly raze Gazan buildings via bombing, destroy sanitation and water facilities, kill thousands, and have a literal blockade to prevent Gaza from getting materials to rebuild even basic facilities and places to live (and then a few years ago when a flotilla of people from all over the world made way toward Gaza to bring materials to them and bring attention to the blockade, Israeli military forces boarded their boats and murdered several people - 9 if memory serves me right on the boats). That's right there under the indirect method, bud.
                            The information I have available indicates that Israel has targetted buildings in Gaza from which attacks have been launched against Israel. Destroying those buildings has a concommitent effect on water reticulation, sewage, and electricity supplies. "Regularly razing" would seem to be mostly a result of regularly being fired upon.

                            I can recall a time when Israel sent a relief convoy to Palestine only to see it bombarded and prevented from delivering the goods by Palestinian attack, and another incident where power supplies to Palestine were cut by Palestinian activists (sabotage of the power plant) - with follow up protests about how Israel was acting with prejudice against Palestine.

                            Drawing on a BBC write up

                            The flotilla, under the banner of IHH (a humanitarian aid agency) was given to offer to offload at an Israeli port from whence Israel would allow transfer of approved goods by road (yup, reason for a great deal of scepticism on that one.)

                            "The Israeli government says the IHH is closely linked to the Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas, which it views as a terrorist group, and is a member of another organisation, the Union of the Good, which supports suicide bombings. However, the Turkish government regards the IHH as a legitimate charity, and had urged Israel to let the flotilla through." Terrorist activity under the banner of humanitarian aid is nothing unusual, and Israel doesn't have a record of making such pronouncements lightly.

                            Information to hand about the killing of ten persons aboard the Mavi Marmara states that they were "Turkish Activists." The deaths were sustained during a gun battle, so declaring them murders (only almost) goes beyond a reasonable assessment. Do humanitarian aid personnel usually go armed aboard ships? (I don't know.) Conflicting details of who actually instigated the gun battle - with no information available to determine the facts. Given that Israel had violated international law in intercepting the ships where they did, it is reasonable to consider Israel guilty of piracy on that one.

                            Israel acted in violation of international law - had they waited until the ships entered Israeli territorial waters, that would not be the case. (I don't know whether the ships could have avoided Israeli waters or not.)
                            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                            .
                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                            Scripture before Tradition:
                            but that won't prevent others from
                            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                            of the right to call yourself Christian.

                            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re the decision to discontinue American funding of Iron-dome
                              Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                              Good, though I don't think it will last long
                              Latest reports indicate that you were right.

                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                                Wow. I'd never have pegged you for an anti-Semite
                                He is not an anti-Semite. This is one of the few topics on which Gondwanaland and I share opinions.

                                One can criticise the politics of the Israeli state without being against the Israeli people. Plenty of Jews inside and outside Israel do that.

                                Do you consider them to be anti-Semites?
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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