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Irondome Defunding

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    That is not what I wrote but you have written is a classic example of trolling i.e. deliberately twisting what someone else has written.
    Well, you ARE the expert.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
      That is not what I wrote but you have written is a classic example of trolling i.e. deliberately twisting what someone else has written.
      Let not your heart be troubled - you are the QUEEN of twisting what others write. Your kingdom is not in jeopardy

      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post

        Well, you ARE the expert.
        Now you are accusing me of your own faults. Tut tut.
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

          Let not your heart be troubled - you are the QUEEN of twisting what others write. Your kingdom is not in jeopardy
          Both yourself and Sparko seem prepared to derail this thread.
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            Both yourself and Sparko seem prepared to derail this thread.
            I was actually responding to your comment, not starting a derail.

            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              How do you imagine those West Bank settlements get built? Where do you imagine the previous occupants of those areas go?
              It's Jewish land. Their government has every right to build settlements. The Jewish High Court has confirmed the legality of certain settlement activities and has concluded that others cannot be legally sustained. It's not much different than US or German Eminent Domain laws.

              As for some of Israel's laws, please note that Haaretz journalists also take issue and use the same terms https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.pre...-law-1.9921372

              Or is Gideon Levy another anti-Semite?
              Indeed he is. And it's a well known fact.

              http://campus.zoa.org/wp-content/upl...ideon-Levy.pdf

              The following are just a few examples of his anti-semitism:
              - After losing a debate at the Oxford Union, during which he argued for the destruction of the only Jewish state, Levy snapped back, saying that he lost because the “president [of the union] is Jewish.”
              - He wrote an article entitled “a conference of the Elders of Zion,” referring to a conference supporting a strong alliance between the United States and Israel. (The “Elders of Zion” is an anti-Semitic forgery written in Russia in the 1800s. It states that the Jews are conspiring to control the media and the world as a whole. It has frequently been cited by Adolph Hitler, KKK leaders, and other leading racists)
              - Citing the anti-Semitic and inaccurate Goldstone Report, Levy wrote an article entitled "Goldstone's Gaza Probe did Israel a Favor.” The Goldstone Report falsely accused Israel of war crimes during Operation Cast Lead. Even the author of the report, Judge Richard Goldstone, renounced it in 2011.

              Breaching journalistic integrity, he fabricates information about Israel to demonize the only Jewish state, which is anti-Semitic according to the U.S. State Department. For instance, one of his articles falsely asserts that “Golda Meir said that after what the Nazis did to us, we can do whatever we want.” When challenged on the truth of this malicious statement, Levy was forced to admit that he had no source for it.

              He attempts to legitimize suicide bombings, car bombing, shooting attacks, and other acts of terrorism against civilians. "The Palestinians do not possess an army. And their only way to struggle for their liberty, for their rights is through what we call terror organizations. Unfortunately so. What other options did we leave them?" "You should ask why do they launch their rockets. You should ask what other choice do you leave the Palestinians in Gaza, living in the biggest jail on earth. Let's be frank. Whenever they stop launching rockets, the world and Israel is forgetting them. Look now, they're again forgotten...."

              Levy calls for a “one-state solution” in which Israel would no longer exist as a Jewish state. Likewise, he strongly advocates for Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions against (BDS), an anti-Palestinian movement that is also dedicated to the delegitimization of Israel and the prevention of cooperation between Israelis and Palestinian-Arabs. The BDS movement harms Palestinian-Arabs working in Israel by boycotting companies that employ them. If BDS succeeds, more than 100,000 Palestinian-Arabs will lose their jobs. BDS undermines peace efforts by encouraging Palestinian-Arab leaders to not associate or negotiate with Israeli peace partners. Why is BDS ignoring actual human rights abuses in the region and instead targeting the only Jewish state?

              Levy falsely claims that Israel is an Apartheid state. Equating Israel with an apartheid state is a deliberate lie constructed to demonize the only Jewish state and minimize the experiences of those who actually suffered from apartheid in South Africa. In reality, minorities in Israel, including Palestinian-Arabs, enjoy equal rights. This makes Israel the opposite of an apartheid state. Israel does not rule over Palestinian-Arabs in Judea and Samaria (the ‘West Bank’); this is the job of the Palestinian Authority (PA). The PA denies Palestinian-Arabs basic freedoms, but this has nothing to do with Israel, as the PA runs a dictatorship over its citizens.

              After years of Palestinian-Arab terrorist attacks and hundreds of Israeli civilians massacred, Israel had to place certain restrictions on the movement of Palestinian-Arabs living in Judea and Samaria. These restrictions, such as a security barrier and border crossings into Israel, proved to work, as terrorist attacks have nearly ceased since their implementation.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                Now you are accusing me of your own faults. Tut tut.
                Tut was an Egyptian pharaoh, and it was Tut, not Tut tut. I am not sure how he has become one of my "own faults" in your mind. I didn't even know him personally. Or are you under the mistaken idea that I am this "Tut" fellow?

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                  I see you've abandoned your BS 'anti-semite' crap. Good.
                  Nope. The shoe seems to fit pretty well.

                  But since you want to throw down, let's go.

                  Let's go with a super simple Wikipedia definition for ya.
                  Wikipedia....

                  Let's look at the UN's definition:

                  https://www.un.org/en/genocidepreven...leansing.shtml

                  As ethnic cleansing has not been recognized as an independent crime under international law, there is no precise definition of this concept or the exact acts to be qualified as ethnic cleansing. A United Nations Commission of Experts mandated to look into violations of international humanitarian law committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia defined ethnic cleansing in its interim report S/25274 as "… rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area." In its final report S/1994/674, the same Commission described ethnic cleansing as “… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.


                  "Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, often with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. Along with direct removal, such as extermination, deportation or population transfer, it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction."

                  So, lesse....

                  1) rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area. - The "settlements" are actually open to Palestinians, and they do live there


                  Surveysays.jpg


                  2) a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.” - The "settlements" are actually open to Palestinians, and they do live there

                  Surveysays.jpg


                  So, according to the UN description, Israel isn't employing ethnic cleansing.


                  Now, on to Apartheid

                  The three most important blocks of legislation were:
                  • The Race Classification Act. Every citizen suspected of not being European was classified according to race.
                  • The Mixed Marriages Act. It prohibited marriage between people of different races.
                  • The Group Areas Act. It forced people of certain races into living in designated areas.

                  So, lesse...

                  1) Race classification - Jewish citizens are Jewish citizens regardless of their race, religion, or national origin.
                  2) Mixed marriages are not illegal
                  3) Palestinians are welcome to live anywhere they want in Israel.

                  Surveysays.jpg

                  Arab citizens are well-represented in Israel’s parliament. To suggest that Israel, which welcomes Arab political participation, is an apartheid state is utter nonsense and betrays an ignorance of the actual polices of the apartheid regime in SA.



                  SO lesse:

                  1. systematic forced removal of ethnic group - Check off that box, unless you want to deny the bulldozing of Palestinian homes and businesses, destruction of their olive trees that they grow for sale of olives and olive oil, etc.

                  2. Intent of making the region ethnically homogenous - Check of that box - the bulldozing of those homes and businesses is done to set up Jewish settlements (those Jewish settlers are known for terrorizing Islamic and Christian Palestinians, BTW)

                  3. Direct removal: check off that box, they're directly forcing them off their lands and out of their homes and even bulldozing people who stand in the way.

                  4. indirect methods: check off that box with the property destruction, arson, destruction of agriculture, shutting off of water, checkpoints to even leave your own village and travel across your own country, requirements of permits to farm your own land, requirements of getting a permit to even travel etc.

                  So looks like it checks all the boxes pretty darn firmly.
                  Nope. Not even a little. Palestinians currently reside in the settlements. Those who are displaced are compensated for their annexed buildings and farms.


                  Now let's go with apartheid. It honestly should not be much of a surprise to anyone that Israel is practicing Apartheid policies.

                  They were close allies with Apartheid South Africa, after all, giving them all sorts of assistance (including military).

                  In fact, at one point, they offered to sell the Apartheid regime nuclear weapons (the offer was turned down due to cost) and nuclear-capable missiles. It's also suspected that they helped the Apartheid regime then develop their own nuclear weapons. In return, South Africa provided Israel much of the yellowcake Uranium they needed to develop their own arsenal (which Israel to this day does not admit to having, and has not signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.....). Israel put great pressure on the post-apartheid government not to declassify the documents that described the sale offer.

                  Their chumminess makes it completely unsurprising they'd use such policies themselves.

                  Actual survivors (including Jewish ones) of South Africa's Apartheid agree that Israel is practicing Apartheid policies.

                  A Rabbi who grew up in South Africa and fought the apartheid regime:
                  https://truthout.org/articles/as-a-r...artheid-state/

                  A Jewish activist who grew up in apartheid South Africa and fought the regime:
                  https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...d-south-africa
                  Already dismissed those. Sharing vague similarities with one or two policies of an Apartheid state does not make one an Apartheid state. I've already discussed the key features of apartheid and shown how Israel is not engaging in them.
                  Last edited by Bill the Cat; 09-24-2021, 09:38 AM.
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                    It's Jewish land. Their government has every right to build settlements.
                    And drive out those who have lived there for decades and/or generations? The Israelis seized the West Bank in the Six Day War. It is Jewish land only by right of conquest. I would be careful what argument you are making here. You are risking endorsing any nation that uses right of conquest to seize the land of other people.


                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    [The Jewish High Court has confirmed the legality of certain settlement activities and has concluded that others cannot be legally sustained. It's not much different than US or German Eminent Domain laws.]
                    And if the Palestinian dig their heels in and refuse to move?

                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                    Indeed he is. And it's a well known fact.
                    ZIONIST ORGANIZATION OF AMERICA? To paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davies "Well they would [say that] wouldn't they?"

                    Why shouldn't an Israeli be fiercely critical of some of his country's policies?

                    This is part of the problem. Anyone be, they Jewish or Gentile, who criticises any aspect of Israel, and in particular Israel's policy towards the Palestinians, risks the accusation they are an anti-Semite.

                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      And drive out those who have lived there for decades and/or generations? The Israelis seized the West Bank in the Six Day War. It is Jewish land only by right of conquest. I would be careful what argument you are making here. You are risking endorsing any nation that uses right of conquest to seize the land of other people.
                      The UN forbade conquering land based on an offensive war. The Six Days War was a defensive one, which allowed Israel to retain the reclaimed land. The Jews lived there for centuries before the Muslims were even a thing. So I'd be careful what argument you make here.


                      And if the Palestinian dig their heels in and refuse to move?
                      The same thing as if an American does so when Eminent Domain is established. The police are usually called to remove them legally.

                      ZIONIST ORGANIZATION OF AMERICA? To paraphrase Mandy Rice-Davies "Well they would [say that] wouldn't they?"

                      They would cite Gideon Levy's own words? Well why wouldn't they?

                      Why shouldn't an Israeli be fiercely critical of some of his country's policies?
                      They should.

                      This is part of the problem. Anyone be, they Jewish or Gentile, who criticises any aspect of Israel, and in particular Israel's policy towards the Palestinians, risks the accusation they are an anti-Semite.
                      Correct. When they lie, misconstrue, or otherwise make the situation one-sided on the Jewish Authority's part while minimizing or outright making excuses for terrorism , they run the risk of being correctly labeled that.
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        And drive out those who have lived there for decades and/or generations? The Israelis seized the West Bank in the Six Day War. It is Jewish land only by right of conquest.
                        Not very often that a nation increases its borders by being attacked from all sides, eh?

                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                          Not very often that a nation increases its borders by being attacked from all sides, eh?
                          All too often, people "forget" that Palestine was annexed to close off an oft used corridor for attack by Arab nations - and that Palestine has little sympathy from the Arab nations. Egypt won't let Palestinians through their border either.
                          sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                            Not very often that a nation increases its borders by being attacked from all sides, eh?
                            In an interesting development, Aljazeera reports - two Arab nations (UAE and Bahrain) adopt diplomatically normalised relations with Israel, and Palestinian President Abbas suddenly demands international peace talks, to begin next year.
                            sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                              In an interesting development, Aljazeera reports - two Arab nations (UAE and Bahrain) adopt diplomatically normalised relations with Israel, and Palestinian President Abbas suddenly demands international peace talks, to begin next year.
                              For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest

                              Keep your eye on the Eastern sky and be listening for a trumpet.

                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

                                Nope. The shoe seems to fit pretty well.



                                Wikipedia....

                                Let's look at the UN's definition:

                                https://www.un.org/en/genocidepreven...leansing.shtml

                                As ethnic cleansing has not been recognized as an independent crime under international law, there is no precise definition of this concept or the exact acts to be qualified as ethnic cleansing. A United Nations Commission of Experts mandated to look into violations of international humanitarian law committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia defined ethnic cleansing in its interim report S/25274 as "… rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area." In its final report S/1994/674, the same Commission described ethnic cleansing as “… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.


                                "Ethnic cleansing is the systematic forced removal of ethnic, racial, and religious groups from a given area, often with the intent of making a region ethnically homogeneous. Along with direct removal, such as extermination, deportation or population transfer, it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction."

                                So, lesse....

                                1) rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area. - The "settlements" are actually open to Palestinians, and they do live there


                                Surveysays.jpg


                                2) a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.” - The "settlements" are actually open to Palestinians, and they do live there

                                Surveysays.jpg


                                So, according to the UN description, Israel isn't employing ethnic cleansing.


                                Now, on to Apartheid

                                The three most important blocks of legislation were:
                                • The Race Classification Act. Every citizen suspected of not being European was classified according to race.
                                • The Mixed Marriages Act. It prohibited marriage between people of different races.
                                • The Group Areas Act. It forced people of certain races into living in designated areas.

                                So, lesse...

                                1) Race classification - Jewish citizens are Jewish citizens regardless of their race, religion, or national origin.
                                2) Mixed marriages are not illegal
                                3) Palestinians are welcome to live anywhere they want in Israel.

                                Surveysays.jpg

                                Arab citizens are well-represented in Israel’s parliament. To suggest that Israel, which welcomes Arab political participation, is an apartheid state is utter nonsense and betrays an ignorance of the actual polices of the apartheid regime in SA.



                                You are conflating Arab-Israelis with Palestinians. Right of the bat, that suggests you don't know what you are talking about.


                                Nope. Not even a little. Palestinians currently reside in the settlements. Those who are displaced are compensated for their annexed buildings and farms.
                                SUre, the ones whose homes haven't been destroyed yet live amongst the settlements. Only a matter of time before they are next.

                                And no, they're not remotely adequately compensated.


                                Already dismissed those.
                                Not surprised.

                                Sharing vague similarities with one or two policies of an Apartheid state does not make one an Apartheid state. I've already discussed the key features of apartheid and shown how Israel is not engaging in them.
                                I'll go with the actual jews who actually actively fought apartheid, on this topic.... not some cat on the internet who links to the 'Zionist Association of America'.
                                Last edited by Gondwanaland; 09-24-2021, 04:58 PM.
                                "So when you actually get the virus, you're going to start producing antibodies against multiple pieces of the virus. So, your antibodies are probably better at that point than the vaccination."
                                - Pfizer Scientist Chris Croce

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