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A thought on Crimea (Butler Shaffer's anyway)

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  • A thought on Crimea (Butler Shaffer's anyway)

    The Russians have a perfect excuse for being in Crimea. Maybe it owes Russia much money. If so, Putin could say, "Crimea doesn't pay!"
    The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

    [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

  • #2
    Crimea river got old fast. This one came mummified straight out of the can.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

    Comment


    • #3
      I saw two stories at the top of Drudge, and had the choice between reading about Crimea or reading about an event the US actually has the personnel, influence and infrastructure to deal with if it wanted:

      On Sunday, city police responded to a call involving 10-15 people fighting at the gym’s Cleveland Avenue location. It started all on the basketball court over a call and escalated, moving into the main fitness area.

      “People were actually throwing two and a half, five, 10 pound weights within the building,” said Police Lt. Lorne Rosand.


      Absolutely disgraceful. If I got into a gym fight and anything less than 25-pound plates were found thrown, I'd turn in my man card immediately.

      Comment


      • #4
        Darth Executor, better unsubscribe now before you see this:

        [Thomas DiLorenzo says he] recently heard a rumor that the Crimeans are considering novel ways of coming up with money to pay all their debts, including suing the American song writer Arthur Hamilton, author of the song “Cry Me a River,” for stealing the title from The Crimea River.


        Oh, dear D.E., you are in tears! Don't say I didn't warn you.
        The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

        [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

        Comment


        • #5
          Kerry threatening Russia...

          http://washingtonexaminer.com/john-k...rticle/2545610

          I don't know what US hopes to achieve here. Russia pretty much holds all the cards: strategically, militarily, and economically.
          "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by seanD View Post
            Kerry threatening Russia...

            http://washingtonexaminer.com/john-k...rticle/2545610

            I don't know what US hopes to achieve here. Russia pretty much holds all the cards: strategically, militarily, and economically.
            Peace in our time!

            Russia is a paper tiger. The US could cripple them economically just by selling gas to Europe. And there's simply no contest between the Russian and US military. If I was president I'd be moving troops into Ukraine and headbutting envirowhackjobs standing against exporting gas left and right. The only reason why Putin is doing this is because he doesn't think Obama has the stones to stop him, and he's probably right.
            "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

            There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
              Peace in our time!

              Russia is a paper tiger. The US could cripple them economically just by selling gas to Europe. And there's simply no contest between the Russian and US military. If I was president I'd be moving troops into Ukraine and headbutting envirowhackjobs standing against exporting gas left and right. The only reason why Putin is doing this is because he doesn't think Obama has the stones to stop him, and he's probably right.
              Russia owns a lot of our debt in US bonds, which they could easily dump on the open market. This would even be worse if this ends up a China/Russia collaboration. The fed would have to quickly print up even more money to buy up those bonds. And, putting aside a nuclear exchange (because then we all lose), what exactly are you basing what I bolded in your post on? From what I see of history, US hasn't convincingly won a war since ww2 (and by win I mean achieved the objective they set out to achieve prior to the war), other than the first Iraq conflict (which was basically just chasing invaders back to their own country).
              "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seanD View Post
                Russia owns a lot of our debt in US bonds, which they could easily dump on the open market. This would even be worse if this ends up a China/Russia collaboration. The fed would have to quickly print up even more money to buy up those bonds.
                IE: Nothing will happen to the US. China won't even get involved.

                which was basically just chasing invaders back to their own country
                What do you think chasing Russia back to Russia would be? The US has no trouble with conventional warfare. It would mop the floor with Russia's decrepit rust buckets. Not to mention that Putin stupidly tries to build a multicultural empire. It would be the perfect opportunity for the many populations Russia keeps hostage within its border to start causing trouble.

                Nevermind that Ukraine gave up its nuclear arsenal in exchange for protection. Refusing to defend them would be pure treason.
                Last edited by Darth Executor; 03-14-2014, 10:06 PM.
                "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                  IE: Nothing will happen to the US. China won't even get involved.



                  What do you think chasing Russia back to Russia would be? The US has no trouble with conventional warfare. It would mop the floor with Russia's decrepit rust buckets. Not to mention that Putin stupidly tries to build a multicultural empire. It would be the perfect opportunity for the many populations Russia keeps hostage within its border to start causing trouble.

                  Nevermind that Ukraine gave up its nuclear arsenal in exchange for protection. Refusing to defend them would be pure treason.
                  Again, I don't understand what you're basing US military strength on. They've confronted nothing but the poorest countries with some of the weakest military mobilizations, and it's mainly been just... eh, if not outright embarrassing long-term moral and economic defeats. I don't get what you're basing their military bravado on, other than it's just really really expensive. And there's really no telling what China will or won't do, and I don't understand why you're so adamant about want they won't do. They may not do a thing if they don't see it as economically strategic, but they've recently announced that they've stopped accumulating US debt, they're buying gold by the bucket loads and they've been positioning some of their trades away from the US dollar.
                  "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I'm basing US military strength on its size, tech level and training. You seem to think that because the US military can't fix the innate cultural problems of third world crapholes then the US military must suck, which is like saying the US military sucks because it can't bake cookies. When it comes to fighting conventional forces it's utterly destroyed any conventional resistance in record time. The problem with countries like afghanistan and iraq is that their cultures aren't going to change overnight. If they can be changed at all by outsiders. So unless you want the US to rule them like Saddam did (rape dungeons and all) there's no "victory" to be had. I don't see what third world barbarians have to do with Russia though. I'm not asking for an invasion of Russia, I'm asking to send military forces to protect a friendly country from a conventional foreign military, which is well within the US's capabilities.

                    I can tell what they're likely to do because I know the relative power difference is decisively in the west's favor. They can't do much to us, whereas we can hurt them and hurt them badly if we want to. If anything it would be great to be rid of free trade contracts with countries like China. Maybe then US corporations might hire more people at home.
                    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                      I'm basing US military strength on its size, tech level and training. You seem to think that because the US military can't fix the innate cultural problems of third world crapholes then the US military must suck, which is like saying the US military sucks because it can't bake cookies. When it comes to fighting conventional forces it's utterly destroyed any conventional resistance in record time. The problem with countries like afghanistan and iraq is that their cultures aren't going to change overnight. If they can be changed at all by outsiders. So unless you want the US to rule them like Saddam did (rape dungeons and all) there's no "victory" to be had. I don't see what third world barbarians have to do with Russia though. I'm not asking for an invasion of Russia, I'm asking to send military forces to protect a friendly country from a conventional foreign military, which is well within the US's capabilities.

                      I can tell what they're likely to do because I know the relative power difference is decisively in the west's favor. They can't do much to us, whereas we can hurt them and hurt them badly if we want to. If anything it would be great to be rid of free trade contracts with countries like China. Maybe then US corporations might hire more people at home.
                      Corporations in China would have no reason or incentive to move back to the west one way or the other as long as it's cheaper to run their businesses there than here, so that has little relevancy with this issue. You apparently don't understand the implications of a country like China dumping our bonds, something that would wreak havoc in the markets and on our economy that's already tittering on the brink; there are at least three major consequences of this action, not the least of which would bring mad inflation on our shores. Since you don't seem to understand the implications, here's a bit of a theroetical breakdown. Keep in mind that they try and downplay it the best they can by assuming a fantasy scenario that other countries will come to our rescue, which will likely not happen. Of course, this article was written three years ago before the NSA global spy network revelation came to the forefront, before Congress showed its complete ineptness at a budget solution, and they also don't mention that China has been hedging itself against such repercussions on its own economy with precious metals from the time this article was written.
                      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seanD View Post
                        Corporations in China would have no reason or incentive to move back to the west one way or the other as long as it's cheaper to run their businesses there than here, so that has little relevancy with this issue.
                        We can cut off their access to Western markets. And China is still ruled by authoritarians that could take their crap away. They don't want to be stranded there.

                        You apparently don't understand the implications of a country like China dumping our bonds
                        No, you don't understand that we can hurt them a lot more than they can hurt us. They need our markets, we don't need their labor, we just have it because it's cheap. Exports to US and its allies amount to almost 10% of their GDP. Selling the US Treasury's Monopoly Money isn't worth it.
                        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                          We can cut off their access to Western markets. And China is still ruled by authoritarians that could take their crap away. They don't want to be stranded there.



                          No, you don't understand that we can hurt them a lot more than they can hurt us. They need our markets, we don't need their labor, we just have it because it's cheap. Exports to US and its allies amount to almost 10% of their GDP. Selling the US Treasury's Monopoly Money isn't worth it.
                          Why would the US cut off corporations like AT&T, Adidas, Dell computers from western markets (I'm assuming that's what you meant since you responded to the section I was referring to western corporations in China)? That makes absolutely no sense. You still don't understand the ramifications of a US bond dump. Dumping our debt won't stop China exports. They already announced they no longer will buy our debt and this didn't even faze their exports. It would undoubtedly hurt both of us, but it would hurt them in other ways than what you're arguing (as it would shake most emerging markets), but they've been hedging themselves against this with real assets. I tried to explain it, so I'll leave it at that.
                          "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Darth Executor
                            Refusing to defend them would be pure treason.
                            If Obama didn't hesitate to throw Qaddafi under the bus, do you think he'll stick the US military out for white people? The Ukrainian revolution was a political/bureaucratic project of the State Department, it got out of hand when some of the protesters actually showed themselves brave enough to fight hard enough to break the barricades, and now Russia is moving troops around to defend the Russian-speaking Eastern population and yank Obama's chain on the international stage.

                            Call of Duty scenarios aside, Barack Obama is neither a diplomat nor a general, and will cave because he has no idea what to do with a military other than cut its funding.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by seanD View Post
                              Why would the US cut off corporations like AT&T, Adidas, Dell computers from western markets (I'm assuming that's what you meant since you responded to the section I was referring to western corporations in China)?
                              Because they'd be aiding and abetting the enemy.

                              That makes absolutely no sense. You still don't understand the ramifications of a US bond dump. Dumping our debt won't stop China exports.
                              I didn't say it would. I'm saying we could cut their access to our markets, so they have very good reasons to not do anything stupid like dumping US bonds.
                              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                              Comment

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