FBI and Whitmer Kidnapping Derail

[Gondwanaland]

Let me guess. They were all agent provocteurs consisting of FBI agents and BLM protester in disguise!

I mean, that's basically what the whole Kindap Whitmer plot turned out essentially being. So it wouldn't be all that surprising.....

[seanD]

I mean, that's basically what the whole Kindap Whitmer plot turned out essentially being. So it wouldn't be all that surprising.....

At least half of them involved consisted of FBI agents in disguise.

[rogue06]

At least half of them involved consisted of FBI agents in disguise.

More like the leaders and organizers who had to pay the air/train/bus fare of several of the others to get them to attend.

[seanD]

More like the leaders and organizers who had to pay the air/train/bus fare of several of the others to get them to attend.

Correct, "leaders" that were FBI informants.

[rogue06]

Correct, "leaders" that were FBI informants.

That is indeed what it looks like.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

No.

https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...ry#post1276501

It was intended with irony. However, your link as well as later replies to this thread some here consider that a distinct possibility.

[rogue06]

It was intended with irony. However, your link as well as later replies to this thread some here consider that a distinct possibility.

Or more simply that the FBI did use agent provocteurs in the supposed plot to kidnap Whitmer which explains why that story got dropped like a hot potato by the MSM.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Or more simply that the FBI did use agent provocteurs in the supposed plot to kidnap Whitmer which explains why that story got dropped like a hot potato by the MSM.

Has that been categorically proven? I understand one man has alleged he was a pawn of/working for the FBI. However, that is not necessarily an agent provocateur.

[rogue06]

Has that been categorically proven? I understand one man has alleged he was a pawn of/working for the FBI. However, that is not necessarily an agent provocateur.

Check out this report from BuzzFeed, which AllSides rates as Lean Left to Left: WATCHING THE WATCHMEN

An examination of the case by BuzzFeed News also reveals that some of those informants, acting under the direction of the FBI, played a far larger role than has previously been reported. Working in secret, they did more than just passively observe and report on the actions of the suspects. Instead, they had a hand in nearly every aspect of the alleged plot, starting with its inception. The extent of their involvement raises questions as to whether there would have even been a conspiracy without them.

A longtime government informant from Wisconsin, for example, helped organize a series of meetings around the country where many of the alleged plotters first met one another and the earliest notions of a plan took root, some of those people say. The Wisconsin informant even paid for some hotel rooms and food as an incentive to get people to come.

The Wisconsin informant even paid for some hotel rooms and food as an incentive to get people to come.

[Another informant] rose to become its second-in-command, encouraging members to collaborate with other potential suspects and paying for their transportation to meetings.

When you have to pay the transportation costs and hotel bills to get someone to come they weren't exactly hyped up over the whole thing. And then they worked them into a frenzy and then arrested them for it.

Effectively the FBI informants created the conspiracy.

[Cow Poke]

Check out this report from BuzzFeed, which AllSides rates as Lean Left to Left: WATCHING THE WATCHMEN

An examination of the case by BuzzFeed News also reveals that some of those informants, acting under the direction of the FBI, played a far larger role than has previously been reported. Working in secret, they did more than just passively observe and report on the actions of the suspects. Instead, they had a hand in nearly every aspect of the alleged plot, starting with its inception. The extent of their involvement raises questions as to whether there would have even been a conspiracy without them.

A longtime government informant from Wisconsin, for example, helped organize a series of meetings around the country where many of the alleged plotters first met one another and the earliest notions of a plan took root, some of those people say. The Wisconsin informant even paid for some hotel rooms and food as an incentive to get people to come.

The Wisconsin informant even paid for some hotel rooms and food as an incentive to get people to come.

[Another informant] rose to become its second-in-command, encouraging members to collaborate with other potential suspects and paying for their transportation to meetings.

When you have to pay the transportation costs and hotel bills to get someone to come they weren't exactly hyped up over the whole thing. And then they worked them into a frenzy and then arrested them for it.

Effectively the FBI informants created the conspiracy.

I smell a DemocRAT!

[rogue06]

Check out this report from BuzzFeed, which AllSides rates as Lean Left to Left: WATCHING THE WATCHMEN

An examination of the case by BuzzFeed News also reveals that some of those informants, acting under the direction of the FBI, played a far larger role than has previously been reported. Working in secret, they did more than just passively observe and report on the actions of the suspects. Instead, they had a hand in nearly every aspect of the alleged plot, starting with its inception. The extent of their involvement raises questions as to whether there would have even been a conspiracy without them.

A longtime government informant from Wisconsin, for example, helped organize a series of meetings around the country where many of the alleged plotters first met one another and the earliest notions of a plan took root, some of those people say. The Wisconsin informant even paid for some hotel rooms and food as an incentive to get people to come.

The Wisconsin informant even paid for some hotel rooms and food as an incentive to get people to come.

[Another informant] rose to become its second-in-command, encouraging members to collaborate with other potential suspects and paying for their transportation to meetings.

When you have to pay the transportation costs and hotel bills to get someone to come they weren't exactly hyped up over the whole thing. And then they worked them into a frenzy and then arrested them for it.

Effectively the FBI informants created the conspiracy.

image_51985.jpg

While not dealing with the likelihood that a couple of informants manufactured a crime, this does deal with how it was portrayed

Source: Anarchist Who Plotted Against Whitmer Also Said This About President Trump

Democrats were never held responsible when their base murdered a Trump supporter in Portland, shot up Republican lawmakers at a congressional baseball game, attacked a U.S. Senator and his wife as they exited the Republican National Convention, and terrorized American cities and suburbs for months on end. But Democrats didn't waste any time blaming President Trump on Thursday for an anarchist plot to kidnap Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (D).

Whitmer herself said the foiled plot against her was the result of hate groups listening to the president's words to "stand back and stand by," which the president said at the first presidential debate. According to Whitmer, hate groups interpreted these words "as a rallying cry, as a call to action."

Well, it looks like the anarchists, true to form, think all government leaders are tyrants, including President Trump.

Brandon Caserta is one of the ringleaders in the foiled plot to kidnap the governor and video reportedly of Caserta shows the suspect calling President Trump a "tyrant" and an "enemy."

"Trump is not your friend, dude," Caserta says. "And it amazes me that people actually believe that when he's shown over and over and over again that he's a tyrant. Every single person that works for government is your enemy, dude."




Source

© Copyright Original Source

So after the left attempted to pin the plot on Trump followers the supposed leader of the group has clearly been shown to have despised Trump. That doesn't mean they are leftists or the like but rather that they are definitely not Trump supporters as was being incessantly reported thanks to Whitmer throwing around baseless accusations.

I should note that the story also includes a video of Caserta calling Trump a "tyrant," and "your enemy."

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Check out this report from BuzzFeed, which AllSides rates as Lean Left to Left: WATCHING THE WATCHMEN

An examination of the case by BuzzFeed News also reveals that some of those informants, acting under the direction of the FBI, played a far larger role than has previously been reported. Working in secret, they did more than just passively observe and report on the actions of the suspects. Instead, they had a hand in nearly every aspect of the alleged plot, starting with its inception. The extent of their involvement raises questions as to whether there would have even been a conspiracy without them.

A longtime government informant from Wisconsin, for example, helped organize a series of meetings around the country where many of the alleged plotters first met one another and the earliest notions of a plan took root, some of those people say. The Wisconsin informant even paid for some hotel rooms and food as an incentive to get people to come.

The Wisconsin informant even paid for some hotel rooms and food as an incentive to get people to come.

[Another informant] rose to become its second-in-command, encouraging members to collaborate with other potential suspects and paying for their transportation to meetings.

When you have to pay the transportation costs and hotel bills to get someone to come they weren't exactly hyped up over the whole thing. And then they worked them into a frenzy and then arrested them for it.

Effectively the FBI informants created the conspiracy.

Thank you for the link - I read the article with interest.

However, the individuals mentioned [perhaps apart from Dan] were decidedly unsavoury. I know the proverbial "mug shot" is not intended to flatter but...


Furthermore can we be certain with hindsight that their "claim their talk never rose beyond the level of fantasy and they never intended to harm anyone" is true?

That section continues "Although they have not denied participating in training events, attending meetings, and communicating with other defendants, they claim that no actual conspiracy to kidnap the governor ever existed."

Buried among seemingly endless Second Amendment memes and jokes shared in the chat was a post from another member, named Pete Musico, asking the Watchmen to download a hunting app that he said they could use to track police officers’ addresses and murder them in their homes, according to court testimony. It was Musico "who also suggested they knock on the doors of police or politicians late at night in order to drag them off and kill them. He added that anyone who didn’t feel comfortable attacking politicians should leave the group."

Musico's attorney, Kareem Johnson might later consider that "he saw a man who might spout off wild ideas — even his friends called him “Crazy Pete” after all — but not a hardened terrorist. Musico, he concluded, was a loudmouth, being charged not for his actions but his speech" but the question remains can law enforcement agencies risk waiting to see if speech should become action? That particularly would seem to apply to this group and the recognition of Michigan as the "original home of the militia movement" along with the fact that McVeigh trained with a local group prior to carrying out the Oklahoma City bombing.

The fact is that these men cannot abnegate their involvement in this case. Bellar clearly relished his 15 minutes of fame when he was photographed inside the Capitol commenting on their Wire chat “That moment when all your friends start noticing you weren’t kidding that you’re down to kill tyrants.” Yes once again those are only words at that stage but... how long do the forces of law and order wait to see if words turn into actions?

It strikes me that in this group one or two more assertive personalities encouraged more pliable individuals to engage in something they all knew was illegal.

However, all those others had the opportunity to exercise their personal responsibility and refuse to participate. They chose not to.

[rogue06]

Thank you for the link - I read the article with interest.

However, the individuals mentioned [perhaps apart from Dan] were decidedly unsavoury. I know the proverbial "mug shot" is not intended to flatter but...


Furthermore can we be certain with hindsight that their "claim their talk never rose beyond the level of fantasy and they never intended to harm anyone" is true?

That section continues "Although they have not denied participating in training events, attending meetings, and communicating with other defendants, they claim that no actual conspiracy to kidnap the governor ever existed."

Buried among seemingly endless Second Amendment memes and jokes shared in the chat was a post from another member, named Pete Musico, asking the Watchmen to download a hunting app that he said they could use to track police officers’ addresses and murder them in their homes, according to court testimony. It was Musico "who also suggested they knock on the doors of police or politicians late at night in order to drag them off and kill them. He added that anyone who didn’t feel comfortable attacking politicians should leave the group."

Musico's attorney, Kareem Johnson might later consider that "he saw a man who might spout off wild ideas — even his friends called him “Crazy Pete” after all — but not a hardened terrorist. Musico, he concluded, was a loudmouth, being charged not for his actions but his speech" but the question remains can law enforcement agencies risk waiting to see if speech should become action? That particularly would seem to apply to this group and the recognition of Michigan as the "original home of the militia movement" along with the fact that McVeigh trained with a local group prior to carrying out the Oklahoma City bombing.

The fact is that these men cannot abnegate their involvement in this case. Bellar clearly relished his 15 minutes of fame when he was photographed inside the Capitol commenting on their Wire chat “That moment when all your friends start noticing you weren’t kidding that you’re down to kill tyrants.” Yes once again those are only words at that stage but... how long do the forces of law and order wait to see if words turn into actions?

It strikes me that in this group one or two more assertive personalities encouraged more pliable individuals to engage in something they all knew was illegal.

However, all those others had the opportunity to exercise their personal responsibility and refuse to participate. They chose not to.

Some of those folks were obviously angry and venting. And it looks like these informants were searching for such people and then egging them on. Even to the point of paying their hotel and transportation costs. IOW, these weren't folks who would likely ever do anything more than grumble if there wasn't someone pushing and dragging them forward -- and in this case that was FBI informants. They effectively created the crime and charged anyone they could get to meet and talk about it.

They call that entrapment.

As for your statement

can we be certain with hindsight that their "claim their talk never rose beyond the level of fantasy and they never intended to harm anyone" is true?

you asked the wrong question. They don't have to prove it is true, instead it is up to the government to prove it is false.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Some of those folks were obviously angry and venting. And it looks like these informants were searching for such people and then egging them on. Even to the point of paying their hotel and transportation costs. IOW, these weren't folks who would likely ever do anything more than grumble if there wasn't someone pushing and dragging them forward -- and in this case that was FBI informants. They effectively created the crime and charged anyone they could get to meet and talk about it.

That is your opinion.

They call that entrapment.

A grey area when dealing with domestic violence and/or terrorism.

As for your statement

can we be certain with hindsight that their "claim their talk never rose beyond the level of fantasy and they never intended to harm anyone" is true?

you asked the wrong question. They don't have to prove it is true, instead it is up to the government to prove it is false.

I think it is up to the lawyers and the jury to determine this case.

[rogue06]

That is your opinion.

Based on the available evidence

A grey area when dealing with domestic violence and/or terrorism.

Maybe in Germany, but in the U.S. entrapment is still forbidden.

Now, that said, you can set up a situation that might be a ripe target for those wanting to break the law.

Bait cars are an example. They are left unlocked in areas were auto theft is common as an enticement and when someone enters the car and tries to steal it the police swoop in and arrest them. There have even been TV shows dedicated to showing crooks stealing the car (hidden cameras inside the car) and their reaction when the car is remotely stalled, the doors locked and the car surrounded by several police cars lights flashing.

But they aren't allowed to lead someone over to the car and encourage them to steal it.

Same with police disguised as streetwalkers (prostitutes who work the street). They can talk with any guy that stops and initiates a conversation, but they can't start that conversation and they can't initiate any talk about sex for money. It has to all be the "john's" (customer's) idea.

Similarly with terrorism, you don't find folks who are upset and then purposely work to radicalize them in order to call them terrorists.

I think it is up to the lawyers and the jury to determine this case.

A very good chance this will never go before a jury now. The prosecution has to know that their case is fragmented, and the defendants will likely be open to pleading down to some minor charges that include time served (if there even is a jail sentence imposed) and minimal fine rather than fight this out in court which would still wind up costing them a good deal more even if they win than it would if they made a deal. Not to mention most folks simply want to get back to their lives.

Of course if they have activist-type lawyers working pro bono or for a low fee, all of that could change.