Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Most Common Vaccines Appear to be Losing Efficacy

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Stoic View Post

    That's one of the nuttier complaints I've heard so far. It's not unusual for clinical trials to be stopped early when the benefit of a therapy is proven early, so that the control group can also benefit from the therapy.

    The value of the additional scientific information to be had by keeping the control groups pales in comparison to the harm that would be done by denying them the benefits of the vaccines. You want proof of efficacy? Compare the numbers of people admitted to hospitals or dying of covid who have been vaccinated with those who haven't. You want proof of safety? We have data from hundreds of millions of people who have received the vaccines.

    Yes, the study participants were randomized, and randomization helps prevent bias. But when you've given shots to over half the population, bias isn't that much of a consideration.
    That's right, just dismiss any facts that don't support your preferred narrative as "nutty". That's always a winning argument.

    Yes, we've given China flu vaccine shots to over half the population, and, rather unsurprisingly given the truncated testing, there are a disproportionately high number of negative outcomes being reported not just in the US but around the world. We're also finding out that the "vaccines" don't fully protect you (vaccinated people are still contracting the China flu and becoming seriously ill), and there are indications that it could make some people even more susceptible to contracting the virus. Then, to top it all off, we're just now finding out that whatever protection the vaccines offer lasts barely half a year.

    You really don't think this could all have been discovered with a full clinical trial that didn't deliberately taint the control group? And we still have no idea what the long-term negative side effects will be (I say "will" rather than "might" because I have little doubt there will be some).
    Last edited by Mountain Man; 08-23-2021, 11:18 AM.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      there are a disproportionately high number of negative outcomes being reported not just in the US but around the world.
      My own country's latest vaccine-reaction data published last week says:

      1,921,913 Total doses administered

      ...part of our review process includes comparing natural death rates to observed death rates following vaccination... To date, the observed number of deaths reported after vaccination is actually less than the expected number of deaths.

      So, people who had the vaccine had a lower all-cause mortality than normal.


      You really don't think this could all have been discovered with a full clinical trial that didn't deliberately taint the control group?
      The entire population of the earth started off unvaccinated, so all countries have data coming out their ears in terms of how the virus affects unvaccinated people. The study doesn't need to continue to have their own special tiny little control group when there's so much data available about how it affects unvaccinated people.

      For that reason, it's common for medical studies to offer the medication to their control group part way through if the medication is clearly effective. This is common best-practice and considered scientifically acceptable and morally obligatory, it is not something invented specially for covid. For any disease or condition for which a treatment is being studied, there will exist plenty of data from outside the study about how the disease affects an untreated person, so control groups are relatively unimportant in these situations.
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • And?

        Originally posted by Dimbulb View Post
        The entire population of the earth started off unvaccinated, so all countries have data coming out their ears in terms of how the virus affects unvaccinated people.
        Red herring. The question is not "How does the China flu affect an unvaccinated person?" but "How does the China flu vaccine affect a person?" and a wide variety of data from multiple countries suggests that not only are the vaccines disproportionately risky compared to other vaccines (in the US alone, there have been significantly more reports of negative outcomes from the China flu vaccine than from all vaccines combined over the past two decades!), but we also know that it doesn't fully protect you from the China flu with people still become seriously ill after the vaccine, that in some cases it can actually increase one's risk of contracting the virus, and that what limited protection it does offer is gone in half-a-year requiring potentially regular boosters in order to remain "fully vaccinated" (a term that has quickly become rather nebulous).
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          That's right, just dismiss any facts that don't support your preferred narrative as "nutty". That's always a winning argument.
          I didn't dismiss any facts.

          Yes, we've given China flu vaccine shots to over half the population, and, rather unsurprisingly given the truncated testing, there are a disproportionately high number of negative outcomes being reported not just in the US but around the world.
          The negative outcomes of the vaccines are disproportionately minor compared to the negative outcomes of the disease.

          We're also finding out that the "vaccines" don't fully protect you (vaccinated people are still contracting the China flu and becoming seriously ill), and there are indications that it could make some people even more susceptible to contracting the virus. Then, to top it all off, we're just now finding out that whatever protection the vaccines offer lasts barely half a year.
          No one ever claimed that the vaccines provide perfect protection.

          What indications have you seen that the vaccines make some people more susceptible to contracting the virus?

          We don't know that the vaccines will stop protecting against hospitalization and death anytime soon. Most of the drop-off in vaccine efficacy can probably be attributed to the delta variant.

          You really don't think this could all have been discovered with a full clinical trial that didn't deliberately taint the control group? And we still have no idea what the long-term negative side effects will be (I say "will" rather than "might" because I have little doubt there will be some).
          An awful lot more people would have died if we had waited to start vaccinating.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

            This is fairly confused, but I'm gonna pick out the one point where the kid deserves some credit first.
            .
            You appear to have picked up on the words 'Front Line' and conflated two separate organisations, smearing the FLCCC with the craziness of Dr Stella. I think you should either properly support your attacks on the FLCCC or withdraw them.

            I think you're right. The FLCCC is their own own, independent version of crazy. Sometimes the crazies all do look alike. For example, there are a number of borderline crazies on TWeb whose crazy is relatively interchangeable, and who often enough develop an obsessive need for acknowledgment from me, personally. Darthie was obviously the poster child there, but he had plenty of company, enough so to inspire the longest rant thread in TWeb history, asking why moi was such a jerk (or at least that's what it read after the mods asked me for a substitute term that could pass the mod rules.

            MaxV, I really don't know who you are. I have vague memories over the years of posts notable for little more than how easy they were to forget. I have slightly less vague memories of a thread where you donned the risible visage of a West African paysan who didn't know French. The smartest guy in the room containing that poster and a doorknob would not be that poster. While this site has for years hosted a thread for Christians celebrating passage over the bar set by the Holding Screwball List, I've made my opinion clear about such lowered expectations:

            No one should take pride in being smarter than a doorknob.

            Not that I have anything against doorknobs. Doorknobs are useful. They provide access to to graceful exits from rooms filled with irretrievable ignorance.

            In other news apparently missed, America's Frontline Doctors kicked Stella out after the Demon Semen videos appeared, the proximal cause for the appearance of her American Doctors on the Frontline.



            Dr. Didier Raoult is a French quack based out of Marseille with enough of a cult following to attract attention to his amazing looking results by our own quacks across the pond, including both the AFLD and the FLCCC, and The Former Huckster. I suspect you've conflated the communicated endorsement of his French quackery with a spurious claim of American group membership.

            Patience time, once again.

            France is on the other side of the Atlantic from the US.

            And responsible medical opinion, beyond those on record in the US Senate promoting quack treatments promoted by quack Marseillais, recommends that Ivermectin should only be used in the context of clinical trials. The specific danger here, as with HCQ and AZT, is that Ivermectin is a poison, which can conceivably have therapeutic advantages only if administered in suitably small doses. The doses which have caused vocal concern are judged safe only for horses in need of deworming, unfortunately also the only doses readily available to the public.

            These doses are dangerous for humans.

            One of the first goals of any set of clinical trials is determining safe dosages.

            Again, folks, consult your personal doctor if you're in need of treatment for Covid.

            For prophylaxis, get vaccinated. To reduce the risk of inadvertent spread, wear a mask indoors and outside when in crowds.

            Once I weed out the handwaving and attempts to make yourself look smart, what is left is an admission that you were wrong to smear the FLCCC with the quackery of Dr Stella, and the 'America's Frontline' crew. Of course, being you, it's nonetheless couched in another attempt to belittle others. You should be better than this, but you aren't. Mostly you have secondary sources, prejudice, and a pile of ad hominem and genetic fallacies. Sad.


            I can find no present connection between Didier Raoult - who you brought up - and the FLCCC. If the FLCCC once supported him or whatever, feel free to cite evidence for that. Not that I care, particularly.


            No-one here is advocating anyone dose themselves with veterinary-grade medications. That should have been obvious, except that you think you're so much smarter than everyone else that you can't help trying to belittle them.


            Nor am I advocating for not getting vaccinated. The question was raised upthread whether there were any treatments for COVID - and I cited the FLCCC as a group that had a treatment protocol. Maybe Ivermectin isn't as effective as they hope in treating patients with COVID. That was never really the point. They are practicing doctors, who are using a combination of drugs to treat COVID. Perhaps time will show them wrong, or prove them right. No skin off my nose, either way.

            ...>>> Witty remark or snarky quote of another poster goes here <<<...

            Comment


            • Contrary to the confident assertions of some alleged intellectuals, for many the interest in HCQ had nothing to do with the so-called "Huckster-in-Chief." Rather it had to do with the reports of actual physicians like Dr. Stephen Smith, Dr. Ramin Oskoui, Dr. Qanta Ahmed, and especially Dr. Harvey Risch.

              Here is an interesting article from June 29 that discusses HCQ and Ivermectin.
              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

              Beige Federalist.

              Nationalist Christian.

              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

              Justice for Matthew Perna!

              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Largely because the flu keeps evolving -- sorta like what we see here with the Chicom coronavirus.

                Still, as anyone can see for themselves, nearly everyone (statistically speaking) who is dying from it are those who are not fully vaccinated. That seems significant.
                Not really - if they were already sick - and most probably were - or vulnerable, doctors may have decided against vaccination with a EUA. And probably some had partial vaccinations then showed a reaction and were medically discontinued - which is what we'd expect with the immunocompromised and elderly (they are more likely to have issues with any medication than a young healthy person is). So no, appears correlative not causative on the surface.
                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                My Personal Blog

                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                Quill Sword

                Comment


                • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                  Here is an interesting article from June 29 that discusses HCQ and Ivermectin.
                  You still peddling HCQ? I thought the snake oil crowd had fully moved onto the latest unproven treatment, Ivermectin, and left HCQ behind now it's been so thoroughly disproven?
                  "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                  "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                  "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                    You still peddling HCQ? I thought the snake oil crowd had fully moved onto the latest unproven treatment, Ivermectin, and left HCQ behind now it's been so thoroughly disproven?
                    I'd be peddling it if it were readily available. AFAICT, the main reason it has fallen out of favor is that it is harder for physicians to obtain. Even Ivermectin is being restricted.

                    If you have evidence that any of Drs. Ramin Oskoui, Qanta Ahmed, Stephen Smith, or Harvey Risch have disavowed HCQ, let me know.
                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Federalist.

                    Nationalist Christian.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                    Justice for Matthew Perna!

                    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                    Comment


                    • Leana Wen:



                      Q - Do you think verification and mandates could work in the U.S. with our notions of freedom, individual liberty?

                      So I think we need to reframe freedom here, right? I don’t agree with the statement that some people have been putting out about vaccines, that this is just about personal choice. You can say that maybe eating unhealthy food is your personal choice. But in this case, nobody should have the right to carry an infectious disease that is able to endanger others and potentially kill them. I mean, I’ve got two little kids. I’m very upset thinking about how there are other people who are choosing not to be vaccinated. And as a result, they are choosing to endanger our children. I’m sure they’re not trying to do this intentionally, but that is the end result.

                      I hope that people see that by not being vaccinated, they’re actually impeding societal progress too. They’re making it harder for kids to get back in school. They’re making it harder for the economy to come back. And why are we allowed to make that kind of personal choice when we do not allow people to make the personal choice to go drunk driving?

                      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                      “not all there” - you know who you are

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                        Leana Wen:
                        You should have used the "box" function rather than the "quote" function, I think.

                        Drunk driving is different, because driving is still regarded as a privilege rather than a right, hence one needs a license. That being the case, it is permissible to attach conditions to retaining that license. Personally, I have mixed views about drunk driving being illegal. In many places, the ability to drive is a virtual necessity, and one should not need a license to do things necessary to normal life. And regardless of that fact, I am at least somewhat sympathetic to the notion that drunk drivers should only be punished when they cause actual harm.

                        As for us unvaxxed, we choose this path for at least two reasons:

                        -- We do not trust the vaxes. If we were guaranteed that any direct or indirect harms reasonably suspected to be the result of the vaxes would be fully taken care of at no cost to us, we would be somewhat less hesitant.

                        -- We believe we have a patriotic duty to resist such fascist impositions on individual liberty. By asserting our own liberty, we are standing up for everyone's liberty. We generally prioritize liberty above life and safety.
                        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                        Beige Federalist.

                        Nationalist Christian.

                        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                        Justice for Matthew Perna!

                        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                        Comment

                        Related Threads

                        Collapse

                        Topics Statistics Last Post
                        Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                        6 responses
                        45 views
                        0 likes
                        Last Post whag
                        by whag
                         
                        Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                        42 responses
                        231 views
                        0 likes
                        Last Post whag
                        by whag
                         
                        Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                        24 responses
                        104 views
                        0 likes
                        Last Post Ronson
                        by Ronson
                         
                        Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                        32 responses
                        176 views
                        0 likes
                        Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                        Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                        73 responses
                        293 views
                        0 likes
                        Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                        Working...
                        X