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Has Biden Bungled Afghanistan?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

    Couldn't. Care. Less. Never should have been there
    Originally posted by Ronson View Post

    Yup. In hindsight, the US probably never should have gone in, but we didn't really know that at the time. But we learned soon after that we had no bone to pick with the Taliban so we shouldn't be fighting with them.

    You both seem to forget one of the founding principles of NATO, that of collective defence, and hence when one NATO ally is attacked it is regarded as an attack on all NATO allies.

    There was therefore a treaty obligation to support the USA in its invasion.
    Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 08-12-2021, 05:03 AM.
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

      He's doing what the democrats claimed they wanted to stop Trump for:

      Source: https://theintercept.com/2020/07/02/house-democrats-working-with-liz-cheney-restrict-trumps-planned-withdrawal-of-troops-from-afghanistan-and-germany/

      The imposed conditions are by no means trivial: for these troop reductions from Afghanistan to be allowed, the Defense Department must be able to certify, among other things, that leaving Afghanistan “will not increase the risk for the expansion of existing or formation of new terrorist safe havens inside Afghanistan” and “will not compromise or otherwise negatively affect the ongoing United States counter terrorism mission against the Islamic State, al Qaeda, and associated forces.”

      © Copyright Original Source

      The fact of the matter is that despite nineteen years of bloodshed and horror the terrorists never went away. Over the years we have seen Taliban controlled areas repressing women, burning schools for girls, and murdering anyone who may reject their barbaric interpretation of Islam.

      I suspect this withdrawal is going to lead to something that bears a resemblance to the British withdrawal from India in 1948. The death toll for that is estimated to have been between 200,000 and one million. I have a dreadful fear that Afghanistan will be worse. Meanwhile Afghan translators and others are now in fear for their own lives and those of their families. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/afgh...ry?id=78422573
      Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 08-12-2021, 05:22 AM.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Ronson View Post

        We're long past the time to pull out. No one said it would be painless.
        But does it have to be a complete rout?

        I would hope that there would have been something in between.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

          Couldn't. Care. Less. Never should have been there, and the sooner we got out and stopped sacrificing our young men and women on the altar of the Military Industrial Complex, the better. Let the Afghanis and other local governments deal with it.
          If you couldn't care less then why did you care enough to post?

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            But does it have to be a complete rout?

            I would hope that there would have been something in between.
            I'm beginning to think the Taliban want us (the West) there for some weird reason. They even announced responsibility for a terror attack that took place in France recently, which is unlike them. Maybe a western presence in Afghanistan gives them something to unite against?

            It's just an endless and costly venture that serves no purpose for the US. If the Taliban take over and cause us trouble in the future (which I doubt they would) there are recourses short of invasion. In this day and age, there is no reason for us to have troops there.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              You both seem to forget one of the founding principles of NATO, that of collective defence, and hence when one NATO ally is attacked it is regarded as an attack on all NATO allies.

              There was therefore a treaty obligation to support the USA in its invasion.
              I'm not clear on what you are referring to regarding NATO. My comment had nothing to do with it.

              I said in hindsight, we (meaning the US) probably shouldn't have gone in there. That's because we (meaning the US and Bush's idiotic intelligence agencies) didn't understand the complex connections taking place there, and demanding the Taliban hand over Osama bin Laden was a ridiculous ultimatum to give them. I would have handled it differently.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                Couldn't. Care. Less. Never should have been there, and the sooner we got out and stopped sacrificing our young men and women on the altar of the Military Industrial Complex, the better. Let the Afghanis and other local governments deal with it.
                ^ this

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                  The fact of the matter is that despite nineteen years of bloodshed and horror the terrorists never went away. Over the years we have seen Taliban controlled areas repressing women, burning schools for girls, and murdering anyone who may reject their barbaric interpretation of Islam.

                  I suspect this withdrawal is going to lead to something that bears a resemblance to the British withdrawal from India in 1948. The death toll for that is estimated to have been between 200,000 and one million. I have a dreadful fear that Afghanistan will be worse. Meanwhile Afghan translators and others are now in fear for their own lives and those of their families. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/afgh...ry?id=78422573
                  The fact of the matter is that the Democrats stopped Trump from doing this in order to ensure the withdrawal “will not increase the risk for the expansion of existing or formation of new terrorist safe havens inside Afghanistan.” From all the reports I'm seeing, as we are withdrawing, the Taliban is taking over cities as we leave.

                  You can argue that this is inevitable, but if that's true, why did the Democrats want to stop Trump from doing this, and why are they silent on it now?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                    I'm beginning to think the Taliban want us (the West) there for some weird reason. They even announced responsibility for a terror attack that took place in France recently, which is unlike them. Maybe a western presence in Afghanistan gives them something to unite against?

                    It's just an endless and costly venture that serves no purpose for the US. If the Taliban take over and cause us trouble in the future (which I doubt they would) there are recourses short of invasion. In this day and age, there is no reason for us to have troops there.
                    I'm trying to find where I said that we should stay in Afghanistan. Maybe some of y'all can point it out to me.


                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                      I'm trying to find where I said that we should stay in Afghanistan. Maybe some of y'all can point it out to me.
                      I didn't mean to imply that you did say that. I was just spouting off.

                      Is Biden bungling the pull out? I would handle it differently but I'm sure there is no perfect way. It will be ugly no matter how it is done. One thing I would make very clear to the population in that area is that the Taliban are making it difficult for western forces to leave, that they want us to stay there. They populate their ranks by making us the bogeymen so I would try to turn the tables on them. Propagandize against them as much as possible.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Ronson View Post

                        I didn't mean to imply that you did say that. I was just spouting off.

                        Is Biden bungling the pull out? I would handle it differently but I'm sure there is no perfect way. It will be ugly no matter how it is done. One thing I would make very clear to the population in that area is that the Taliban are making it difficult for western forces to leave, that they want us to stay there. They populate their ranks by making us the bogeymen so I would try to turn the tables on them. Propagandize against them as much as possible.
                        I don't know of anyone who wants to remain in Afghanistan. Railing against that position seems to be a waste of time and battling straw men.

                        The point is that this withdraw is becoming an unmitigated disaster as even more provincial capitals have fallen since I started this thread.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Trump pretty much eliminated ISIS and was taming the middle east. Now Biden and the democrats are undoing it all, which will allow the Taliban, ISIS, and even new Terrorist groups to grow and flourish in the middle east, creating new threats to the West. But then, that's probably what they want. They need more external threats to use as bogeymen to keep tightening the reigns and limiting freedoms, removing access to firearms, raising taxes, etc.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            I don't know of anyone who wants to remain in Afghanistan. Railing against that position seems to be a waste of time and battling straw men.

                            The point is that this withdraw is becoming an unmitigated disaster as even more provincial capitals have fallen since I started this thread.
                            We were there about 20 years and in that time we couldn't build a government and population that could resist the Taliban. I don't see how another 20 years would make a difference. Maybe we have to concede that more Afghans want Taliban rule than we realize.

                            Also, the US is good at winning wars. We don't have a good track record at nation building.
                            "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                            "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              Trump pretty much eliminated ISIS and was taming the middle east. Now Biden and the democrats are undoing it all, which will allow the Taliban, ISIS, and even new Terrorist groups to grow and flourish in the middle east, creating new threats to the West. But then, that's probably what they want. They need more external threats to use as bogeymen to keep tightening the reigns and limiting freedoms, removing access to firearms, raising taxes, etc.
                              Biden is also bringing an end to the peace accords in the Middle East. We're back to tying the Palestinian issue to every discussion and he's delayed the agreed to arms shipments.

                              Maybe if they put Hunter on a board of directors...

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                But does it have to be a complete rout?

                                I would hope that there would have been something in between.
                                Yes. We have no business there. At all.

                                Comment

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