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The right to die?

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  • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    Paperwork, virtually any paperwork, can be falsified. Consent may be forced one way or another. How would anyone know that some outside duress had not been applied if the victim says it has not?
    There goes all contracts and wills.

    <edited to add>
    And all consensual human interaction, for that matter.
    </edited to add>

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      my biggest worry is that if it is legalized it will be misused. Just like everything else is.

      I remember the scene in Soylent Green, where they were overcrowded so they encouraged their old people to end their life. They had suites set up with nice music playing and gently put them to sleep. Then turned them into crackers and fed them to the rest of the people. Of course they also just ran trucks down the street with scoops and picked up people and turned them into crackers too.

      But I can see something like Planned Parenthood (Planned Euthanasia?) that encourages seniors to stop being a burden on their families and the healthcare systems and end their lives peacefully. Or even end up with legislation that let families "commit" their oldsters and those who are sick to be euthanized, like you would your dog. "Poor Pappy! He is getting forgetful and he also has a broken hip. We can't afford to take care of him at the nursing home so we are sending him to the Happy Farm where he can be with Grandma!"
      You're acting like people are going to forced into some concentration camp against their will - they're not. Everything I'm talking about would either be signed by the individuals themselves with witnesses, or a legal guardian. When my grandfather had cancer he was out of his mind. His life was a giant headache with violent diarrhea. When he couldn't even remember our names, it broke my dads heart. My father spoke how he knew my grandfather would never have wanted that - they had talked about it. So what is it of anybody else business? None. Let them make their own choices, or close family use a living will.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
        You're acting like people are going to forced into some concentration camp against their will - they're not. Everything I'm talking about would either be signed by the individuals themselves with witnesses, or a legal guardian. When my grandfather had cancer he was out of his mind. His life was a giant headache with violent diarrhea. When he couldn't even remember our names, it broke my dads heart. My father spoke how he knew my grandfather would never have wanted that - they had talked about it. So what is it of anybody else business? None. Let them make their own choices, or close family use a living will.
        No not "forced" - "encouraged"

        Basically marketing death as a way to be helpful to your family and society. That is what I am worried about mostly. I agree with the principal, but I have seen way too many abuses by political groups.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Joel View Post
          To perhaps argue on the other side:
          For assisted suicide, I would think that proof of consent would at least be required to avoid a murder conviction. You would need a 3rd party witness who was unbiased and without conflict of interest (thus not an assistant, not someone from the hospital or insurance, etc), to verify that the person is competent to consent to such a contract and is not under duress or coercion. Similar to witnessing a will. And it may be difficult-to-impossible to say that a person currently in extreme pain is not under duress?
          I would agree. Proof of consent is required. "Not under duress or coercion" could be defined to only reference external pressures (family, insurance, doctors, w/e).

          A lot of the "but this could be abused" arguments don't really hold. Everything can be abused. That's not a basis for condoning or condemning a practice.
          I'm not here anymore.

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          • Yeah, I remember the opponents of "overpopulation" saying "you can fit the entire population of the US in Jacksonville Florida". I always wanted to go check that place out.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              No not "forced" - "encouraged"

              Basically marketing death as a way to be helpful to your family and society. That is what I am worried about mostly. I agree with the principal, but I have seen way too many abuses by political groups.
              I'm also concerned about any potential eternal consequences.
              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Yeah, I remember the opponents of "overpopulation" saying "you can fit the entire population of the US in Jacksonville Florida". I always wanted to go check that place out.
                Of course at nearly 750 sq. mi. it is one of the largest cities in the U.S. (although Juneau and Anchorage in Alaska are both considerably larger)

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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                • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  What's your fascination with getting a PM from somebody you appear to hate? And what on earth makes you think it takes "guts" to send a PM? I responded to your posts honestly and civilly, simply asking you to back up a claim. For that, I'm "trolling"?????
                  CP, it's simply a suggestion, you don't have to read so deep into it like you do everything else. I said RG had guts because there was a time he used to cuss me out on the forums. I told him if he wanted to really cuss me out, he could PM me and I wouldn't report the exchange. I'm not saying I want you to cuss me out (as I know you'll assume) but what I am saying is that I'd rather you stop bringing your personal issues with me to the rest of the forums. You've done this in how many threads in just the past month or so? Either have the nerve message me, start a topic in the padded-room, or just stop this troll drama.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                    I would agree. Proof of consent is required. "Not under duress or coercion" could be defined to only reference external pressures (family, insurance, doctors, w/e).

                    A lot of the "but this could be abused" arguments don't really hold. Everything can be abused. That's not a basis for condoning or condemning a practice.
                    Well said.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      No not "forced" - "encouraged"

                      Basically marketing death as a way to be helpful to your family and society. That is what I am worried about mostly. I agree with the principal, but I have seen way too many abuses by political groups.
                      So what? It IS helpful to both your family and society in a multitude of ways. You may find that to be a hard truth, but it is a truth nonetheless. It stops the suffering and doesn't put your family through unnecessary emotional and financial trauma.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
                        CP, it's simply a suggestion, you don't have to read so deep into it like you do everything else. I said RG had guts because there was a time he used to cuss me out on the forums. I told him if he wanted to really cuss me out, he could PM me and I wouldn't report the exchange. I'm not saying I want you to cuss me out (as I know you'll assume) but what I am saying is that I'd rather you stop bringing your personal issues with me to the rest of the forums. You've done this in how many threads in just the past month or so? Either have the nerve message me, start a topic in the padded-room, or just stop this troll drama.
                        OR you could just ignore me!
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • That would not be a very good idea.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            OR you could just ignore me!
                            OR you could just stop being a fifty something year old troll with too much time on his hands. But I know you crave attention so that won't happen.

                            Comment


                            • I've worked in Hospice. Here's what happens. A person must have a terminal illness that is progressively becoming worse and is no longer treatable. A DNR must be signed, and the goal is to provide comfort measures such as pain relief, food and water on request, assistance with ADL's and as the person decides in their DNR they may reject forced nutrition and fluids but ask for pain medicines and nausea medicines to relieve discomfort even if it shortens the time they have left. Although generally once a person gets to a point where they can no longer eat or drink, death comes within 5-7 days. Medicines used at that point are used to clear excess secretions, severe pain, anxiety, and sponges to assist with dry mouth. At the point where it gets to specific medicines every hour a person may become comatose and a person may pass away. Is this assisted suicide? Not necessarily. A person who is clearly at death's door is receiving relief from symptoms of their disease which is killing them. Am I ok with that? yes. However am I ok with someone being given a fatal dose of morphine and potassium chloride at the beginning of a diagnosis? No. why? because we do not know where there illness will take them, how long there life will last, if they can be cured ( even a neuroglioblastoma has a 10 percent cure rate, could they be one of those 10 percent?) Life does not have a stamp on it. and having known 2 people that committed suicide that were mentally ill (and not in their right mind at the time) I firmly suggest that many who consider suicide are not in their rig mind. Even the Late Robin Williams was found to have Lewy's Dementia, which while fatal in 5-10 years indicates that at the time he was killing himself something was severely wrong. and having worked in this population we don't know but I can take an educated guess that hallucinations, paranoia, mood swings could have all been a part of it, an any number of medicines would have assisted him. It didn't have to end in suicide.
                              A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
                              George Bernard Shaw

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
                                OR you could just stop being a fifty something year old troll with too much time on his hands. But I know you crave attention so that won't happen.
                                62, Sea. But it's just a number. And I really don't know why you're so fixated on me. Maybe it's a man crush, and I don't reciprocate.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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