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The right to die?

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  • Originally posted by Sea of red View Post

    I'll also say this about you Dee Dee, you've really changed in the past three years. In the past I used to not read much of your posts because I find little in common with you. But unlike most here that talk about small-government, you actually walk the walk and are consistent now.

    I've gone through some changes myself, so I can relate.
    Thank you Sea that means a great deal to me.
    The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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    • Originally posted by Darth Xena View Post
      My life is my own, and that entails the right to say I have had enough for whatever reason I deem fit.
      I hear many people think like that!!

      So on day of resurrection of everyone you'll take it up with Almighty One?
      Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

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      • Originally posted by Darth Xena View Post
        Nice straw man. I never said everything is an absolutely right. Particularly since I am a hard deontological libertarian, I obviously don't think EVERYTHING is a right.

        But whether or not *I* have to live IS the most fundamental of rights. Nothing is more. Without it, there is no real right to "life." My life is my own, and that entails the right to say I have had enough for whatever reason I deem fit.
        Not a strawman - it's not a right.

        You may be able to commit suicide - but that doesn't make it a right. The idea that life is only meaningfully yours if you can end it is ridiculous - you don't need to end it for it to be yours and if it were true that it can only be your life if you have the ability to decide between life and death then it cannot logically be your life even if you had a right to kill yourself because you CAN'T make yourself live. Death will come - it is inevitable (sans the Second coming, of course). You can't even will your hair color let alone will yourself immortality. If your life belonging to you is tied to your ability to control life itself then it doesn't belong to you and you don't have the right to take that life. By your own premise, there is no right to die.

        "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


        "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

        My Personal Blog

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        • Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
          Righto.

          If the government can force us to live, then we are not truly free.
          Okay, out of curiosity, what noun or verb can go before that comma and this sentence not be true in your view?

          Incidentally, did you flunk bio? God has that kind of power - not government. No one,except Him, can 'force' you to live. That isn't the debate at all- it's whether or not you can kill people who want to die for whatever reason.

          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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          • Originally posted by Sea of red View Post
            Not everything should be up to mob rule.
            You skipped about a hundred steps there. You don't have the right to breathe air. The world is not descending into mob rule just because no one bothered to codify breathing air as a right.

            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot


            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

            My Personal Blog

            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

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            • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              There absolutely is not. Not everything is a right.
              Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
              You skipped about a hundred steps there. You don't have the right to breathe air. The world is not descending into mob rule just because no one bothered to codify breathing air as a right.
              I think you're using 'right' in the legally protected sense (as I would do) and not in the basic liberty sense. SoR and DX seem to be using the latter.
              I'm not here anymore.

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              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                You skipped about a hundred steps there. You don't have the right to breathe air. The world is not descending into mob rule just because no one bothered to codify breathing air as a right.
                Actually breathing air is a right since you need air to live and if someone deprives you of that, they are guilty of trying to kill you.

                I think you are the one skipping pretty merrily.
                The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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                • Originally posted by Carrikature View Post
                  I think you're using 'right' in the legally protected sense (as I would do) and not in the basic liberty sense. SoR and DX seem to be using the latter.
                  I am indeed primarily using it in the liberty sense. Laws can only recognize rights (or infringe them). They do not create them.

                  IF the law tomorrow gave me the legal right to die, it didn't create that right. And Teal would say that just because the law says so doesn't either since she denies a right to an abortion (as do I).
                  The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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                  • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                    Okay, out of curiosity, what noun or verb can go before that comma and this sentence not be true in your view?

                    Incidentally, did you flunk bio? God has that kind of power - not government. No one,except Him, can 'force' you to live. That isn't the debate at all- it's whether or not you can kill people who want to die for whatever reason.
                    When dealing with human affairs, generally, particularly when talking about the state, we are talking about horizontal relationships not vertical ones. God can take a life for any reason. You cannot.

                    I cannot imagine the mindset that says no, you don't have a right to die in the manner of your choosing and for information and assistance if consensual.
                    The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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                    • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                      Not a strawman - it's not a right.

                      You may be able to commit suicide - but that doesn't make it a right.
                      If self-ownership is a right, and I believe it is incoherent to say that it is not through argumentation ethics, you are making a self-ownership claim in even arguing the point, then there is nothing more fundamental than that.

                      The idea that life is only meaningfully yours if you can end it is ridiculous - you don't need to end it for it to be yours...
                      You do need the right to end it if it is entirely yours. Ownership has as its definition the right to dispose of property, and what we have is a property right in our bodies.

                      and if it were true that it can only be your life if you have the ability to decide between life and death then it cannot logically be your life even if you had a right to kill yourself because you CAN'T make yourself live.
                      Non-Sequitur. You have a right to freedom of movement. But that doesn't mean you have to be able to fly. Biological realities are foundational presupposition.

                      Death will come - it is inevitable (sans the Second coming, of course). You can't even will your hair color let alone will yourself immortality. If your life belonging to you is tied to your ability to control life itself then it doesn't belong to you and you don't have the right to take that life. By your own premise, there is no right to die.
                      And demonstrated above how fallacious that is.

                      So hungry to control other people.
                      The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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                      • Originally posted by Darth Xena View Post
                        Actually breathing air is a right since you need air to live and if someone deprives you of that, they are guilty of trying to kill you.
                        Breathing air is an involuntary reflex.

                        I do not understand why a minarchist would demand rights, since those are generally codified and enforced by governments. I'd think, to avoid confusion, you'd refer to liberties rather than rights.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                        • I'm not a minarchist.

                          And no rights are not codified by governments. And anarchists are not opposed to governments. They are opposed to the state. There is a difference. Libertarian anarchists tend to be firm deontologists and hold to natural rights.

                          Breathing is a necessity to life. You have a right to life. Breathing is part and parcel of that. Thus it is a right.
                          The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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                          • Originally posted by Darth Xena View Post
                            You have a right to life.
                            As a Christian, I believe that. As a non-supernaturalist, I might not; only the fittest have the right, by virtue of being the fittest. If you're arguing from natural philosophy, what is the case for a right to life?
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                            • While that might be an interesting argument more time than I have right now. I believe it is self-evidence through self-ownership. (as a supernaturalist I have other grounds obviously)
                              The State. Ideas so good they have to be mandatory.

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                              • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                                Okay, out of curiosity, what noun or verb can go before that comma and this sentence not be true in your view?

                                Incidentally, did you flunk bio? God has that kind of power - not government. No one,except Him, can 'force' you to live. That isn't the debate at all- it's whether or not you can kill people who want to die for whatever reason.
                                Try reading my information pane next time before you ramble on about your flavor of theology.

                                I wouldn't been given a BS in physics and an MS in astronomy had I flunked biology class, Teal. While we're on the topic though, what science degrees do you have?

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