Delta variant and all future global variant surges (all are free post)

[Stoic]

Your "fact-checker' apparently contradicted itself...

“They do get a bump in payment from Medicare if a patient has a diagnosis of COVID-19 listed on the bill,” the AHA spokesperson explained.

They are not over-reporting COVID-19 cases. And, they are not making money on treating COVID-19,” Pollack wrote.

When you consider that it costs more to treat covid-19 patients, it's not really a contradiction.

However, if it was a contradiction, it would be Pollack contradicting himself, not the fact-checker. And it would not give us any reason to believe that the Cares Act pays hospitals more for covid-19 deaths.

[seanD]

When you consider that it costs more to treat covid-19 patients, it's not really a contradiction.

However, if it was a contradiction, it would be Pollack contradicting himself, not the fact-checker. And it would not give us any reason to believe that the Cares Act pays hospitals more for covid-19 deaths.

This is why we can't have nice things when we're both apparently looking at opposing sources of information. According to a Reuters "fact-check"...

Section 3710 of the CARES Act calls for the following: “For discharges occurring during the emergency period described in section 1135(g)(1)(B), in the case of a discharge of an individual diagnosed with COVID–19, the Secretary (of Health and Human Services) shall increase the weighting factor that would otherwise apply to the diagnosis-related group to which the discharge is assigned by 20 percent.”

(...)

The terms “weighting factor” and “diagnosis-related group” are part of Medicare’s Prospective Payment System. Since 1983, the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) has used the system to put medical and surgical services into different categories known as diagnosis-related groups. According to the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services, the system “creates a rate of payment based on the “average” cost to deliver care (bundled services) to a patient with a particular disease” (See page 5, here ). The CMS gives each diagnosis-related group a unique weight, which “reflects the average level of resources for an average Medicare patient” in that group, “relative to the average level of resources for all Medicare patients” (See page 6). For the purposes of the payment system, in-hospital deaths are considered discharges.

(...)

As for discharges of patients without insurance, the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services (HHS) says here , “Every health care provider who has provided treatment for uninsured COVID-19 patients on or after February 4, 2020, can request claims reimbursement through the program and will be reimbursed at Medicare rates, subject to available funding.” According to estimates from the U.S. Census Bureau, 9.6% of New York City residents under the age of 65 are uninsured ( here ).

So they were in fact compensated for covid "discharges" of certain government insured patients and the uninsured. Hence, one of the "fact-checkers" is either outright lying or unwittingly misconstruing the information. Since your source can't seem to get the facts straight enough not contradict itself, I'll go with Reuters, even though Reuters is not really giving me any surprise revelation about something I already knew from other reliable sources.

[shunyadragon]

Some figures have been "adjusted" so far (3 years later), but that's the problem -- only a tiny percentage have been adjusted, when we're talking thousands of records in hospitals across the country, thus we don't have an accurate OVERCOUNT total.

No such thousands exist except in the imagination of hysterical extreme right wing conservatives. This over all count of fatalities in the USA and other countries has been confirmed by by comparing the fatality rate in previous years. In fact early in the pandemic there was likely undercount form the lack of knowledge of Covid-19 and attributed to other causes. In some countries like China there has been an extreme undercount, because the families hide the cause of death, because of the negative stigma of Covid-19.

Yes, many who died of Covid-19 also had pneumonia at the time of death. Not that many fatalities have ever happened in history for pneumonia alone.

[Stoic]

This is why we can't have nice things when we're both apparently looking at opposing sources of information. According to a Reuters "fact-check"...

Section 3710 of the CARES Act calls for the following: “For discharges occurring during the emergency period described in section 1135(g)(1)(B), in the case of a discharge of an individual diagnosed with COVID–19, the Secretary (of Health and Human Services) shall increase the weighting factor that would otherwise apply to the diagnosis-related group to which the discharge is assigned by 20 percent.”

(...)

The terms “weighting factor” and “diagnosis-related group” are part of Medicare’s Prospective Payment System. Since 1983, the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) has used the system to put medical and surgical services into different categories known as diagnosis-related groups. According to the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services, the system “creates a rate of payment based on the “average” cost to deliver care (bundled services) to a patient with a particular disease” (See page 5, here ). The CMS gives each diagnosis-related group a unique weight, which “reflects the average level of resources for an average Medicare patient” in that group, “relative to the average level of resources for all Medicare patients” (See page 6). For the purposes of the payment system, in-hospital deaths are considered discharges.

(...)

As for discharges of patients without insurance, the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services (HHS) says here , “Every health care provider who has provided treatment for uninsured COVID-19 patients on or after February 4, 2020, can request claims reimbursement through the program and will be reimbursed at Medicare rates, subject to available funding.” According to estimates from the U.S. Census Bureau, 9.6% of New York City residents under the age of 65 are uninsured ( here ).

So they were in fact compensated for covid "discharges" of certain government insured patients and the uninsured. Hence, one of the "fact-checkers" is either outright lying or unwittingly misconstruing the information. Since your source can't seem to get the facts straight enough not contradict itself, I'll go with Reuters, even though Reuters is not really giving me any surprise revelation about something I already knew from other reliable sources.

I don't know why you call them "opposing sources of information". They both show that hospitals don't have any financial incentive to put covid-19 down as a cause of death on the death certificate. They get paid the extra 20 percent for patients with covid-19, whether they live or die, and whether they die of covid-19 or of something else.

[seanD]

I don't know why you call them "opposing sources of information". They both show that hospitals don't have any financial incentive to put covid-19 down as a cause of death on the death certificate. They get paid the extra 20 percent for patients with covid-19, whether they live or die, and whether they die of covid-19 or of something else.

Your argument was...

And it would not give us any reason to believe that the Cares Act pays hospitals more for covid-19 deaths.

You're wrong as was your fact-checker. Whether or not there are overcounts and how widespread it was is goalpost moving.

[Stoic]

Your argument was...



You're wrong as was your fact-checker. Whether or not there are overcounts and how widespread it was is goalpost moving.

Your argument was...

Or it could be that in many cases where that line was blurred, money from the Cares Act gave medical staff the extra incentive push towards dying "from covid."

But the Cares Act does not give medical staff any extra incentive push towards dying "from covid" as opposed to dying "with covid", as both of our sources agree.

[shunyadragon]

Your "fact-checker' apparently contradicted itself...

“They do get a bump in payment from Medicare if a patient has a diagnosis of COVID-19 listed on the bill,” the AHA spokesperson explained.

They are not over-reporting COVID-19 cases. And, they are not making money on treating COVID-19,” Pollack wrote.

'Bump?' How ridiculous!

This follows the hysteria right wing conspiracy that there was a countrywide conspiracy to inflate the number of Covid-19 severe cases and fatalities for financial benifite, which is hysterical in and of itself. The data for the fatalities due to Covid-19 is worldwide and no such conspiracy exists.

I would have to take off my shoes to count how many times this has been refuted in this thread alone. Conspiracy theories die hard

[seanD]

'Bump?' How ridiculous!

This follows the hysteria right wing conspiracy that there was a countrywide conspiracy to inflate the number of Covid-19 severe cases and fatalities for financial benifite, which is hysterical in and of itself. The data for the fatalities due to Covid-19 is worldwide and no such conspiracy exists.

I would have to take off my shoes to count how many times this has been refuted in this thread alone. Conspiracy theories die hard

How does this relate to my post? In the post you quoted I pointed out where Stoic's source (Verify) contradicted itself and it clearly does.

[shunyadragon]

How does this relate to my post? In the post you quoted I pointed out where Stoic's source (Verify) contradicted itself and it clearly does.

It relates directly to your ongoing hysterical conspiracy agenda. No contradictions involved.

[seanD]

It relates directly to your ongoing hysterical conspiracy agenda. No contradictions involved.

I never pushed a "conspiracy agenda." Keeping a hospital financially afloat with government funds during a pandemic I can see that as being interpreted as a moral imperative, not necessarily a conspiracy.

[Gondwanaland]

No such thousands exist except in the imagination of hysterical extreme right wing conservatives. This over all count of fatalities in the USA and other countries has been confirmed by by comparing the fatality rate in previous years. In fact early in the pandemic there was likely undercount form the lack of knowledge of Covid-19 and attributed to other causes. In some countries like China there has been an extreme undercount, because the families hide the cause of death, because of the negative stigma of Covid-19.

Yes, many who died of Covid-19 also had pneumonia at the time of death. Not that many fatalities have ever happened in history for pneumonia alone.

Wrong. It's not 'in the imagination of hysterical extreme right wing conservatives'.

Indeed, Leana Wen of WaPo, a very liberal journalist who has been rabidly pro-mask, pro vax, etc., has brought up the issue just recently of overcounting Covid.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...-overcounting/

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the United States is experiencing around 400 covid deaths every day. At that rate, there would be nearly 150,000 deaths a year.


But are these Americans dying from covid or with covid?



Understanding this distinction is crucial to putting the continuing toll of the coronavirus into perspective. Determining how likely it is an infection will result in hospitalization or death helps people weigh their own risk. It also enables health officials to assess when vaccine effectiveness wanes and future rounds of boosters are needed.





Two infectious-disease experts I spoke with believe that the number of deaths attributed to covid is far greater than the actual number of people dying from covid. Robin Dretler, an attending physician at Emory Decatur Hospital and the former president of Georgia’s chapter of Infectious Diseases Society of America, estimates that at his hospital, 90 percent of patients diagnosed with covid are actually in the hospital for some other illness.






“Since every hospitalized patient gets tested for covid, many are incidentally positive,” he said. A gunshot victim or someone who had a heart attack, for example, could test positive for the virus, but the infection has no bearing on why they sought medical care.



Dretler also sees patients with multiple concurrent infections. “People who have very low white blood cell counts from chemotherapy might be admitted because of bacterial pneumonia or foot gangrene. They may also have covid, but covid is not the main reason why they’re so sick.”


If these patients die, covid might get added to their death certificate along with the other diagnoses. But the coronavirus was not the primary contributor to their death and often played no role at all.




Dretler is quick to add that the imprecise reporting is not because of bad intent. There is no truth to the conspiracy theory that hospitals are trying to exaggerate coronavirus numbers for some nefarious purpose. But, he said, “inadvertently overstating risk can make the anxious more anxious and the skeptical more skeptical.”




Another infectious-disease physician, Shira Doron, has been researching how to more accurately attribute severe illness due to covid. After evaluating medical records of covid patients, she and her colleagues found that use of the steroid dexamethasone, a standard treatment for covid patients with low oxygen levels, was a good proxy measure for hospitalizations due to the coronavirus. If someone who tested positive didn’t receive dexamethasone during their inpatient stay, they were probably in the hospital for a different cause.


Doron’s work was instrumental to Massachusetts changing its hospitalization reporting a year ago to include both total hospitalizations with covid and those that received dexamethasone. In recent months, only about 30 percent of total hospitalizations with covid were primarily attributed to the virus.



This tracks with Doron’s experience at her hospital, Tufts Medical Center, where she also serves as hospital epidemiologist. Earlier in the pandemic, a large proportion of covid-positive hospitalizations were due to covid. But as more people developed some immunity through vaccination or infection, fewer patients were hospitalized because of it. During some days, she said, the proportion of those hospitalized because of covid were as low as 10 percent of the total number reported.




Determining the true number of hospitalizations from covid has immediate, practical purposes. “It allows for better forecasting of hospital capacity,” Doron told me. “If our hospital beds are full and we attribute it to covid, we might think that we’ll get the beds back when the wave of infections is over. But if people are sick from other causes, the beds could stay full.”


Doron acknowledges that there is a gray zone in the data in which covid might not be the primary cause of death but could have contributed to it. For instance, covid infection could push someone with chronic kidney disease into kidney failure. She and her colleagues are collecting data on this as well.



Both Dretler and Doron have faced criticism from people who say they are minimizing covid. That is not at all their aim. They have taken care of covid patients throughout the pandemic and have seen the evolution of the disease. Earlier on, covid pneumonia often killed otherwise healthy people. Today, most patients in their hospitals carrying the coronavirus are there for another reason. They want the public to see what they’re seeing, because, as Doron says, “overcounting covid deaths undermines people’s sense of security and the efficacy of vaccines.”






To be clear, if the covid death count turns out to be 30 percent of what’s currently reported, that’s still unacceptably high. But that knowledge could help people better gauge the risks of traveling, indoor dining and activities they have yet to resume.


Most importantly, knowing who exactly is dying from covid can help us identify who is truly vulnerable. These are the patients we need to protect through better vaccines and treatments.

So spare us your crap

[Mountain Man]

There was a study very early on aboard a cruise ship that proved that the China flu was far less deadly than death merchants like Fauci the Fraud were telling us. Of course the study was almost entirely ignored because it didn't fit the Washington DC agenda, which was to get President Trump out of office at any cost.

[shunyadragon]

[QUOTE=Gondwanaland;n1451686]

Wrong. It's not 'in the imagination of hysterical extreme right wing conservatives'.

Indeed, Leana Wen of WaPo, a very liberal journalist who has been rabidly pro-mask, pro vax, etc., has brought up the issue just recently of overcounting Covid.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...-overcounting/

Insufficient documentation to justify the conspiracy of over counting

So spare us your crap

Come up with better references and spare us with your crap!!!!

[seanD]

[QUOTE=shunyadragon;n1451907]

Wrong. It's not 'in the imagination of hysterical extreme right wing conservatives'.

Indeed, Leana Wen of WaPo, a very liberal journalist who has been rabidly pro-mask, pro vax, etc., has brought up the issue just recently of overcounting Covid.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...-overcounting/

Insufficient documentation to justify the conspiracy of over counting




Come up with better references and spare us with your crap!!!!

Wen is an expert in the field. If she suspects overcounting, then there's a high probability that overcounting was/is occurring. I also can't imagine a reason there would be overcounting without government funding being a factor. I doubt Wen suspects overcounting is due to just medical incompetence.

One thing we know for sure is that there were unlikely that many undercounts, even in the beginning stages of the pandemic. Medical staff was undoubtedly diligently testing as early as March to make sure they were reimbursed for each and every covid positive patient they were treating.

[shunyadragon]

[QUOTE=seanD;n1451927]

Wen is an expert in the field. If she suspects overcounting, then there's a high probability that overcounting was/is occurring. I also can't imagine a reason there would be overcounting without government funding being a factor. I doubt Wen suspects overcounting is due to just medical incompetence.

One thing we know for sure is that there were unlikely that many undercounts, even in the beginning stages of the pandemic. Medical staff was undoubtedly diligently testing as early as March to make sure they were reimbursed for each and every covid positive patient they were treating.

Ex-spurts do not determine the science of Covid-19. You are also drastically overstating the conclusions of the article to justify your hysterical conservative agenda.