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Delta variant and all future global variant surges (all are free post)
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
Lol I saw that. It's like...uh..... pretty sure the vaccinated took the vaccine to be protected. Why do they now need to be protected by other people taking the vaccine? Does the vaccine now not provide any protection? And let's say that makes any sense, and that everyone gets vaccinated - who then protects the vaccinated from the vaccinated?
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View PostLol I saw that. It's like...uh..... pretty sure the vaccinated took the vaccine to be protected. Why do they now need to be protected by other people taking the vaccine? Does the vaccine now not provide any protection? And let's say that makes any sense, and that everyone gets vaccinated - who then protects the vaccinated from the vaccinated?
Seat belts don't provide perfect and complete risk protection. Driving safely yourself and obeying the traffic rules doesn't provide perfect and complete risk protection. In the same way, the vaccine reduces the risk, but what other people around you do matters to, and the vaccine doesn't provide perfect and complete risk protection, it merely reduces risk like a seatbelt or driving safely does.
In an ideal scenario, a vaccine that was good enough, given to enough of the population, would be sufficient to cause the rate of spread (the R effective) to go below 1 and hence the virus would disappear from the country, and, ideally, the world (e.g. smallpox a terrible and massively deadly disease, wiped out worldwide through vaccines). Sufficient numbers of people refusing vaccines means that won't happen, and thus the vaccinated people who are themselves trying to mitigate their risks will be constantly exposed to danger due to the actions of the unvaccinated. It's like you and your friends trying to drive safely in an area where everyone else is driving crazily and having accidents regularly, your own safe driving is going to be limited in how much it can mitigate the risks those around you are posing."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
Lol I saw that. It's like...uh..... pretty sure the vaccinated took the vaccine to be protected. Why do they now need to be protected by other people taking the vaccine? Does the vaccine now not provide any protection? And let's say that makes any sense, and that everyone gets vaccinated - who then protects the vaccinated from the vaccinated?Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostA question we've been asking for a while: If the vaccine works, then why are Democrats acting like it doesn't?"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostIt's compulsory to wear seat belts when driving cars, to reduce risk. But that doesn't mean it's okay to run red lights. Obeying the road rules also reduces risk. So you do both.
Seat belts don't provide perfect and complete risk protection. Driving safely yourself and obeying the traffic rules doesn't provide perfect and complete risk protection. In the same way, the vaccine reduces the risk, but what other people around you do matters to, and the vaccine doesn't provide perfect and complete risk protection, it merely reduces risk like a seatbelt or driving safely does.
In an ideal scenario, a vaccine that was good enough, given to enough of the population, would be sufficient to cause the rate of spread (the R effective) to go below 1 and hence the virus would disappear from the country, and, ideally, the world (e.g. smallpox a terrible and massively deadly disease, wiped out worldwide through vaccines). Sufficient numbers of people refusing vaccines means that won't happen, and thus the vaccinated people who are themselves trying to mitigate their risks will be constantly exposed to danger due to the actions of the unvaccinated. It's like you and your friends trying to drive safely in an area where everyone else is driving crazily and having accidents regularly, your own safe driving is going to be limited in how much it can mitigate the risks those around you are posing.
2. not wearing a seat belt doesn't harm someone else who is.
3. either the vaccine is effective or it isn't. Y'all need to make up your mind. Especially when the majority of the country is vaccinated.
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post1. Your analogy fails unless you figure out a way to analogize the superior natural immunity of those that have had covid before.
2. not wearing a seat belt doesn't harm someone else who is.
3. either the vaccine is effective or it isn't. Y'all need to make up your mind.
The vaccine provides some level of protection. Likewise previous exposure provides some level of protection against future exposure, but is a much more dangerous way of generating those same antibodies compared to getting the vaccine. It's not a complicated concept.
Please tell me you do actually understand and are just trolling."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostI'm happy to lump people who have had covid in with the vaccinated group in terms of both having reduced risk of future infection and of future hospitalization and death when compared to those who are unexposed and unvaccinated.
No analogy is perfect.
Are you mentally incapable of understanding concepts like risk reduction, or partial effectiveness?
The vaccine provides some level of protection. Likewise previous exposure provides some level of protection against future exposure, but is a much more dangerous way of generating those same antibodies compared to getting the vaccine. It's not a complicated concept.
Please tell me you do actually understand and are just trolling.
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
Lol I saw that. It's like...uh..... pretty sure the vaccinated took the vaccine to be protected. Why do they now need to be protected by other people taking the vaccine? Does the vaccine now not provide any protection? And let's say that makes any sense, and that everyone gets vaccinated - who then protects the vaccinated from the vaccinated?
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
I don't know exactly what Kamala had in mind, but one risk to the vaccinated is that so many unvaccinated will be needing medical care that there won't be any available when it's needed by the vaccinated for reasons other than covid-19. Perhaps in another few weeks, that won't be so much of a risk, but the risk may return this winter.
The thing that is causing shortages of medical care when it is needed, is the mandates forcing people (nurses in particular) out of their jobs (or pushing them to retire) at those hospitals. Something that is happening across the country. I heard a lot about how, for example, Houston was experiencing more than the staff could handle. What wasn't mentioned by the media, is that those same hospitals had put vaccine mandates into place over the summer, and a large number of staff quit in response. So you guys are making your own problems and then trying to blame them on unvaccinated.
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
Actually, you vaccine mandate folks are the ones that are causing medical care to be scarce. For example, ICU useage in Texas is not particularly abnormal right now, with 95 percent or so capacity, which is similar to average filled capacity in previous years before covid.
The thing that is causing shortages of medical care when it is needed, is the mandates forcing people (nurses in particular) out of their jobs (or pushing them to retire) at those hospitals. Something that is happening across the country. I heard a lot about how, for example, Houston was experiencing more than the staff could handle. What wasn't mentioned by the media, is that those same hospitals had put vaccine mandates into place over the summer, and a large number of staff quit in response. So you guys are making your own problems and then trying to blame them on unvaccinated.
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Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post
Actually, you vaccine mandate folks are the ones that are causing medical care to be scarce. For example, ICU useage in Texas is not particularly abnormal right now, with 95 percent or so capacity, which is similar to average filled capacity in previous years before covid.
The thing that is causing shortages of medical care when it is needed, is the mandates forcing people (nurses in particular) out of their jobs (or pushing them to retire) at those hospitals. Something that is happening across the country. I heard a lot about how, for example, Houston was experiencing more than the staff could handle. What wasn't mentioned by the media, is that those same hospitals had put vaccine mandates into place over the summer, and a large number of staff quit in response. So you guys are making your own problems and then trying to blame them on unvaccinated.
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Originally posted by Stoic View Post
Eh, I'm not a vaccine mandate guy. Nice try, though.
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ICU beds in much of Oklahoma are limited, according to this report from the State Department of Health and Human Services: https://oklahoma.gov/covid19/newsroo...y-reports.html
Originally posted by Gondwanaland View PostWe're better, actually. But good to hear - many liberals are science deniers when it comes to natural immunity.
That's usually what someone says when it's been pointed out that their analogy sucks donkey butt.
Is it effective or is it not? I'm naturally immune. I don't go around worrying about whether or not other people have had covid, or if they got something shot into their veins. What is wrong with you people?
Those percentages were even better before delta, and could become better with a booster shot.
Also, natural immunity is pretty good. But it seems likely that natural immunity plus vaccination is even better. See here for example: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...nated-rcna1974Find my speling strange? I'm trying this out: Simplified Speling. Feel free to join me.
"Nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure. It is for them alone to point out what we ought to do, as well as to determine what we shall do."-Jeremy Bentham
"We question all our beliefs, except for the ones that we really believe in, and those we never think to question."-Orson Scott Card
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Originally posted by stfoskey15 View PostICU beds in much of Oklahoma are limited, according to this report from the State Department of Health and Human Services: https://oklahoma.gov/covid19/newsroo...y-reports.html
The vaccines reduce the chances of getting sick by 50-80% and of getting hospitalized or dying by 85-95%. The numbers depend somewhat on which study you look at or which age group you consider. Does that make sense to you?
Those percentages were even better before delta, and could become better with a booster shot.
Also, natural immunity is pretty good. But it seems likely that natural immunity plus vaccination is even better. See here for example: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/healt...nated-rcna1974
Another thing to keep in mind is that hospitalization numbers wrt covid are no longer a particularly informative or useful statistic.Last edited by Gondwanaland; 09-15-2021, 08:44 PM.
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