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Delta variant and all future global variant surges (all are free post)

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  • Delta variant and all future global variant surges (all are free post)

    Post away.

    Conspiracies. Non-conspiracies. Theories. Facts. Official covid fearmongering news. Debates. Fights and arguments. Off topic high jinks.

    All are welcome to post whatever you want... no one gets banned!
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

  • #2
    Btw, those who assume it is a choice either between what we're being officially told or a grand conspiracy and cover-up... this is a false dichotomy, often propagated by the covid cult left.

    There is a report of overcounts that has been confirmed as fact. How widespread this is, we obviously don't have the answer.

    Now that we know it is possible, there has to be an explanation for that. Would you say that it was collusion between medical personnel who were behind a devious plot? Perhaps they just got swept up in the fear and hysteria and got carried away? Or perhaps they were influenced by financial incentive?

    I'd go with one of the latter two. Point being, there needs to be no grand conspiracy or collusion assumed there.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by seanD View Post
      Btw, those who assume it is a choice either between what we're being officially told or a grand conspiracy and cover-up... this is a false dichotomy, often propagated by the covid cult left.

      There is a report of overcounts that has been confirmed as fact. How widespread this is, we obviously don't have the answer.

      Now that we know it is possible, there has to be an explanation for that. Would you say that it was collusion between medical personnel who were behind a devious plot? Perhaps they just got swept up in the fear and hysteria and got carried away? Or perhaps they were influenced by financial incentive?

      I'd go with one of the latter two. Point being, there needs to be no grand conspiracy or collusion assumed there.
      I'd certainly like to hear more about it. Was the cause of death listed on the death certificate wrong, or were the numbers coming from some source other than death certificates?

      They're doing now what they were supposed to have been doing all along. It seems reasonable to expect some explanation for why it was done wrong. "We were just too busy" is pretty weak.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Stoic View Post

        I'd certainly like to hear more about it. Was the cause of death listed on the death certificate wrong, or were the numbers coming from some source other than death certificates?

        They're doing now what they were supposed to have been doing all along. It seems reasonable to expect some explanation for why it was done wrong. "We were just too busy" is pretty weak.
        The undercount is a PRATT, unsurprisingly still popular with conspiracy theorists and kooks, like the o/p. Santa Clara County narrowed their definition of a Covid-19 death. Their changes are unlikely to be adopted widely, as they differ from those used for all previous epidemics and cannot account for the excess deaths above historical averages tracked by the CDC that can only be accounted for by assuming they are due to Covid-19.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

          The undercount is a PRATT, unsurprisingly still popular with conspiracy theorists and kooks, like the o/p. Santa Clara County narrowed their definition of a Covid-19 death. Their changes are unlikely to be adopted widely, as they differ from those used for all previous epidemics and cannot account for the excess deaths above historical averages tracked by the CDC that can only be accounted for by assuming they are due to Covid-19.
          Except it's not. The overcount has been confirmed multiple times as fact. And every time, it ends up being a good 20-25 percent overcount.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

            Except it's not. The overcount has been confirmed multiple times as fact. And every time, it ends up being a good 20-25 percent overcount.
            Unless they are changing the cause of death as listed on the death certificate, it's not going to change the CDC's count of covid-19 deaths, which is now just under 600,000.

            And it doesn't appear that they are:

            Source: https://covid19.sccgov.org/news-releases/pr-07-02-2021-SCC-refines-criteria-for-identification-of-covid-19-deaths


            This shift reduces the total number of deaths attributed to COVID-19 since the onset of the pandemic by approximately 22 percent. The refined definition includes only deaths in which COVID-19 is listed as part of the cause of death on the death certificate, incorporating information provided by health experts including medical providers and the County Medical Examiner-Coroner’s office.

            © Copyright Original Source

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

              The undercount is a PRATT, unsurprisingly still popular with conspiracy theorists and kooks, like the o/p. Santa Clara County narrowed their definition of a Covid-19 death. Their changes are unlikely to be adopted widely, as they differ from those used for all previous epidemics and cannot account for the excess deaths above historical averages tracked by the CDC that can only be accounted for by assuming they are due to Covid-19.
              I can't believe you actually posted that. The bold defeats your own argument. And your explanation doesn't seem to correlate with what Dr. Monica Gandhi has stated...

              “In the midst of everything COVID people were sort of putting down that cause of death as COVID,” Gandhi said. “It is important to go back and do this accounting to see if COVID was actually the cause of death'”
              She wasn't talking about "excess deaths," she states they analyzed specifically what was the cause of death, and I'm assuming this was case-by-case. They weren't making "assumptions" about excess deaths.


              "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                Except it's not. The overcount has been confirmed multiple times as fact. And every time, it ends up being a good 20-25 percent overcount.
                Confirmation comes from excess death figures, and the excess death figures say official covid-19 counts are undercounts. The fact that excess deaths don't support the overcount preferred by kooks and conspiracy theorists hasn't stopped them from continuing to say otherwise. No matter how many times the debunking is repeated. Hence, a PRATT.

                This denial of deaths in the face of irrefutable evidence isn't novel. When consciences were shocked by the deaths at Sandy Hook, conspiracy theorists proclaimed the grieving parents were not grieving parents, but crisis actors. Because a rational mind can't continue to support position that embraces death, the rational mind either changes its position, or breaks, instead embracing irrationality.

                Advocacy for just letting people die from Covid-19 was never going to be popular, no matter how much hate or how many death threats the movement generated toward public health officials. There are vaccines now that can prevent further deaths, nearly all of them anyway. With the rise of the far more contagious delta variant, this would be a good time to take advantage of them.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seanD View Post
                  She wasn't talking about "excess deaths," she states they analyzed specifically what was the cause of death, and I'm assuming this was case-by-case. They weren't making "assumptions" about excess deaths.
                  From the years without Covid-19, we can estimate the number of deaths we should expect from all causes, and they are not sufficient to explain the deaths since the onset of the Covid-19 epidemic. More, we can see when the undercounts were most pronounced, and unsurprisingly, they align with the period at the onset of the epidemic when people who could not be tested were sent home, many of whom died without ever being tested.

                  Official Covid-19 deaths are in blue, and deaths from other causes are in green. The orange line is the expected number of deaths plus a percentage to account for statistical anomalies. Deaths where the green tops the orange can't be accounted for from the trends of deaths from prior years.

                  2021-07-18_00-57-58.jpg
                  Last edited by Juvenal; 07-18-2021, 12:10 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Six-month-old hour-long video about vitamin D. It's about Covid, but also has general info about vitamin D. I'm not going to try to summarize at this point, since I'm less than 1/4 through.

                    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                    Beige Nationalist.

                    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                      Except it's not. The overcount has been confirmed multiple times as fact. And every time, it ends up being a good 20-25 percent overcount.
                      The thing is, if we accept a 20-25% overcount... we still end up with a very large number. If the overcounted death toll is 600,000, and it's 25% higher than it should be, that means the true count is 480,000. That's still rather large. I just don't think there's a rhetorical point to be scored here if it's "only" 480,000 deaths.

                      I mean, heck, if we accept a 100% overcount, we still have 300,000 deaths.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                        The thing is, if we accept a 20-25% overcount... we still [...]
                        ... need to explain where the excess deaths are coming from. There's no good mix between truth and lies that isn't unfair to truth, and the truth is the excess deaths show conclusively that Covid-19 deaths in the US have been undercounted. Truth deserves our support.

                        I understand what you're saying, that even their alternate reality is devastatingly horrid, but accommodating conspiracy theorists isn't a defensible option.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

                          ... need to explain where the excess deaths are coming from. There's no good mix between truth and lies that isn't unfair to truth, and the truth is the excess deaths show conclusively that Covid-19 deaths in the US have been undercounted. Truth deserves our support.

                          I understand what you're saying, that even their alternate reality is devastatingly horrid, but accommodating conspiracy theorists isn't a defensible option.
                          Excess deaths don't necessarily mean death by covid. I'm sure you know that. There are many explanations for those deaths that might be indirectly related to the pandemic but have nothing directly to do with the actual virus. I know the covid cult loves to fearmonger about that, but it's purely speculative. We have actual proof that a medical staff was overcounting, and she even gave the reason why. A fearmonger covid cult might, but a rational person doesn't call actual evidence a conspiracy theory.
                          "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by seanD
                            I know you're typically an arrogant know-it-all, who loves to smear anyone and everyone you disagree with (that's just you MO here), but excess deaths doesn't necessarily mean death by covid. I'm sure you know that. There are many explanations for those deaths that might be indirectly related to the pandemic but have nothing to do with covid. I know the covid cult loves to fearmonger about that, but it's purely speculative. We have actual proof that a medical staff was overcounting, and she even gave the reason why.
                            In the interest of removing any accusation of illicitly smearing you with the bad behavior of another, allow me to clarify that I believe you, personally, are a kook and a whackjob, and that in this instance, that you, personally, are spreading misinformation that puts lives at risk. Your behavior is atrocious. It's wicked. It's evil. You, personally, should be ashamed of yourself.

                            When the data isn't kind to your position, it boots nothing to attack the messenger, unless you're merely seeking to confirm your whackjob status. We know that the excess deaths began with the pandemic, declined as the pandemic receded, and increased again as further waves occurred. We know the official count of Covid-19 deaths is insufficient to explain the excess deaths, and that any other cause is, to turn your phrase to better use, purely speculative.

                            There's nothing novel about attributing incidental deaths to a wider cause. When displaced persons die during a Civil War, should they be counted as due to the Civil War? Perhaps that would be overcounting. People do die of other causes. What about deaths beyond those we should expect from that population?

                            The revision of official counts for Santa Clara County removed 500 deaths. We have no further details other than the statement they were not directly attributable to Covid. If my sister had died a couple of weeks ago, and if it had occurred in Santa Clara County, it could have been defensibly recorded as principally due to a comorbidity. But there's no question it would not have occurred had she not contracted Covid, and failing to count it as a Covid death would entail its own inaccuracies.

                            Similarly, there's no question she would have been at much lower risk had she been vaccinated. She was infected prior to the delta wave surging across the country today. The delta variant would not have emerged if Covid had been sufficiently suppressed. If in turn, it's not suppressed, a worse variant will emerge.

                            If you haven't yet, get your shots, people. Do it for yourselves, and do it for community. Do it because it's the right thing to do.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

                              In the interest of removing any accusation of illicitly smearing you with the bad behavior of another, allow me to clarify that I believe you, personally, are a kook and a whackjob, and that in this instance, that you, personally, are spreading misinformation that puts lives at risk. Your behavior is atrocious. It's wicked. It's evil. You, personally, should be ashamed of yourself.

                              When the data isn't kind to your position, it boots nothing to attack the messenger, unless you're merely seeking to confirm your whackjob status. We know that the excess deaths began with the pandemic, declined as the pandemic receded, and increased again as further waves occurred. We know the official count of Covid-19 deaths is insufficient to explain the excess deaths, and that any other cause is, to turn your phrase to better use, purely speculative.

                              There's nothing novel about attributing incidental deaths to a wider cause. When displaced persons die during a Civil War, should they be counted as due to the Civil War? Perhaps that would be overcounting. People do die of other causes. What about deaths beyond those we should expect from that population?

                              The revision of official counts for Santa Clara County removed 500 deaths. We have no further details other than the statement they were not directly attributable to Covid. If my sister had died a couple of weeks ago, and if it had occurred in Santa Clara County, it could have been defensibly recorded as principally due to a comorbidity. But there's no question it would not have occurred had she not contracted Covid, and failing to count it as a Covid death would entail its own inaccuracies.

                              Similarly, there's no question she would have been at much lower risk had she been vaccinated. She was infected prior to the delta wave surging across the country today. The delta variant would not have emerged if Covid had been sufficiently suppressed. If in turn, it's not suppressed, a worse variant will emerge.

                              If you haven't yet, get your shots, people. Do it for yourselves, and do it for community. Do it because it's the right thing to do.

                              This is the ramblings of a fearmongering cultist. Covid is your religion, Juvenal. You're almost as bad as Ox, only much more nasty in your adherence.

                              Your smears are nothing new either. They might actually have meaning, and I might have even taken some offense if it wasn't your MO and what you do to everyone here that disagrees with you.

                              So get your fear on, bro. This thread is about free speech. ​​
                              "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                              Comment

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