Self-identification contradiction?

[rogue06]

Source: Meet the British Man Who Spent $200K To Become Korean

TikTok sensation sparks debate over transracial identity and medical ethics

Oli-Final-e1625839628835-848x1024.jpg

Oli London amassed thousands of followers with his flamboyant reviews of songs by Korean pop boy band BTS, but the thrill of TikTok fame soon wore off. He struggled to find ways to sate his obsession with K-pop culture. On June 26, the white British influencer announced to the world that he now identifies as Korean. London's announcement of his new identity and the dramatic surgeries he underwent in an effort to actualize it drew attacks on social media. His story has also raised serious questions as to the ethics of cosmetic surgery and consumer-driven medicine in the Western world.

"I identify as Korean. That’s just my culture, that’s my home country…. I also identify as Jimin, that’s my Korean name," London said in a video posted on Twitter, which has already been viewed more than four million times. "This is something that you guys know if you’ve followed my journey for the last eight years. I’ve really struggled with identity issues, with who I am."

London’s drive to change his identity led him to undergo 18 plastic surgeries over eight years, at a price of $200,000, rendering London unrecognizable to those who knew him growing up.

London spoke to the Washington Free Beacon in the wake of the revelation of his Korean identity. "I started to learn about Korea and love Korea when in 2013, I went there to teach English for a year," London said. "Korea was so warm and welcoming; it was almost like a paradise. For me it was an ideal world. I just felt I wanted to be a part of that."

Not content to merely join the millions of foreigners living in South Korea, London became convinced that he was born in the wrong body. "I do identify as Korean, I don’t identify as British. I feel like I should have been born in Korea because in that culture, everything from the mannerisms to the way they look is what I identify with," London said. His cosmetic procedures began in 2013 soon after he returned to his native Britain. The surgeries were meant to help London’s face emulate the features of BTS superstar Jimin, a singer with whom London is Obsessed.

"I've had five rhinoplasties now, which is the most; I’ve had my jawbone shaved down; I’ve had my chin cut off and made to be more pointy; I also had my cheekbones shaved down to make my face more small, more cute, and to have more of the Korean aesthetic which is more about kind of small, cute, and symmetrical features," London said. "All the K-pop stars look so beautiful, they look so perfect with the symmetry and that’s what led me to my fascination."

That a doctor deemed it appropriate to indulge London’s fantasies reflects a concerning trend in the relationship between health care and the public. Western-trained doctors traditionally avoided operating on healthy tissue, which distinguished medicine from businesses that cater wholly to customers' tastes.

"As medicine increasingly puts itself in this position of being in the service of emancipatory projects that help self-determination efforts, using all sorts of new technologies, it is a deep corruption," University of Virginia bioethicist Joseph Davis told the Free Beacon. "Sometimes it’s called a kind of consumerism, or that medicine has become more consumerist…. My view is that what medicine is losing is its ethical nature."

London’s eye surgeries were performed by physicians at Longevita, a medical tourism company registered in the United Kingdom and Istanbul. For Brits looking to save money on elective procedures, Longevita connects them with "Leading Surgeons" overseas. Longevita's website warns that those who forgo spending thousands on cosmetic surgery "may get plagued with feelings of dissatisfaction and unhappiness."

But there’s virtually no evidence that the discontent felt by individuals like London will be alleviated in the long term by cosmetic surgery. Myriad studies have reached a far different conclusion on whether even relatively simple operations, such as breast augmentation, increase happiness. A number of studies found that women who undergo breast enlargement procedures saw significantly higher suicide rates, even as women in the West increasingly tell pollsters that they’re open to the idea of, if not planning on getting, cosmetic surgery.

unnamed-1-e1625839401442.jpg
Oli London prior to undergoing 18 plastic surgeries

Longevita’s founder and CEO, Kagan Seymenoglu, defended the surgeries in an interview with the Free Beacon. "I look at it from the patient's perspective—I think everyone has and should have the right and the freedom to do whatever they want on their body, because essentially it's their body, and what is important is how that procedure makes him feel," Seymenoglu said.

Seymenoglu argued that cosmetic surgeries are ultimately the patient's prerogative. "It's not up to anyone but Mr. London himself to decide on his appearance. So, I think the only decision-maker should be the patient himself," Seymenoglu said. "It's not just a matter of ethics, it's a matter of how you perform your duty as a surgeon. So if the patient is in the right mind, and if there is nothing, medically speaking, that is a contradiction—for the surgery, you have to do it, that's your job, that's your duty."

The earliest versions of the Hippocratic Oath cautioned physicians against practicing surgery due to their limited knowledge of the human body and the invasive nature of the practice. During the Renaissance, physicians and the universities that taught them deemed surgery a low, manual trade. In modern times, there has been a paradigm shift in this line of thinking, as surgeons, even in cosmetic professions, are held in higher regard. But some are revisiting this debate, contending that the cosmetic surgeons of today are closer to the gore-stained barber-surgeons of the Middle Ages than to professional and ethical modern doctors.

"There are financial inducements there and social pressures to use medical powers to give people what they want," said doctor and University of California Irvine bioethicist Aaron Kheriaty. "And there’s a strong cultural current of expressive individualism that influences medicine as well to accept these kinds of socially constructed goals and as legitimate hands for medicine."

London's announcement was met with backlash from the public. Fans who had praised his non-binary gender identity heaped scorn on his transracial status. London received thousands of comments from Twitter users ranging from words of support to threats of violence.

London was taken aback by the response from his critics and compared many of his new features to those of celebrities. One of his most recent surgeries aimed to change the shape of his eyes, a procedure that drove many users on social media apoplectic. London defended the practice, arguing that it was a "common" procedure that "many Hollywood stars have received in the past."

"In Asia as well the eye procedure is super common, to have the eyes made slightly wider, to have a double eyelid fold, so what I am doing is just the opposite of what happens in Asia, but that’s why I don’t understand why I have backlash because it’s totally normal in Asia to have these kinds of procedures," London said. It was Pride Month after all, London noted, why are we not celebrating all forms of identity?

The question is more contentious than one may think and has been the subject of papers and inquiries by serious philosophers. The feminist journal Hypatia found itself in the middle of a massive academic controversy after it printed a peer-reviewed article comparing the identities of Caitlyn Jenner, a transgender woman, and Rachel Dolezal, a white woman who identifies as black. Rebecca Tuvel’s March 2017 piece "In Defense of Transracialism" posited "that considerations that support transgenderism extend to transracialism."

"If Dolezal has been subject to racism for over 10 years … is this not sufficient to expose her to an important element of what it's like to be black in a racist society? Moreover, if true, this objection would also apply to trans women who transitioned later in life but did not grow up knowing what it was like to experience sexism," Tuvel wrote.

Tuvel's argument was met with the same level of hostility London faced after his announcement. Hypatia sent out groveling apologies and a number of editors resigned from the publication's board. The implicit response from Tuvel’s critics, presumably most of whom support the most extreme interpretations of gender theory, could be summarized simply: Everyone knows changing your race is insane.

Many surgeons who perform cosmetic procedures on patients like London appear entirely indifferent to the psychological profile of their patient, a departure from the modern Hippocratic Oath, which states that physicians do not "treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being." When examining patients, doctors are traditionally expected to look at the intrinsic purposes and goals built into the medical practice and our understanding of the human body.

Seymenoglu expressed his confidence in London’s mental state and the efficacy of the plastic surgeries. "I think I have no questions about whether he's in the right mind," Seymenoglu said. "It's just his personality and how he wants to look, and maybe there might be a professional element to this as well, because it's his profession as well, having all these social media followers and being an influencer. I think he's doing these things on purpose as well, which is part of his profession."

Seymenoglu gave a generous assessment of an individual who "Married" a cardboard cutout of BTS star Jimin in January 2020. "Because I’m obsessed with Jimin, they get very jealous of me," London said. He remains confident that he will be a "pioneer" for others who share his affliction.

"All the K-pop fans, they actually all identify as Korean," London said. "I do feel that there will be so many people in the world that do identify as a different culture than their own. There are so many people."



Source

© Copyright Original Source

[*Article includes a couple more photos*]

So why exactly do the folks who celebrate it when someone decides to identify as a different gender, praising their decision, and savagely attacking anyone who might think it's a bad idea, now up in arms about someone self-identifying as a different ethnicity deciding to do so?

What exactly is the difference that results in a nearly polar opposite reaction from the same people?

[Gondwanaland]

Source: Meet the British Man Who Spent $200K To Become Korean

TikTok sensation sparks debate over transracial identity and medical ethics

Oli-Final-e1625839628835-848x1024.jpg

Oli London amassed thousands of followers with his flamboyant reviews of songs by Korean pop boy band BTS, but the thrill of TikTok fame soon wore off. He struggled to find ways to sate his obsession with K-pop culture. On June 26, the white British influencer announced to the world that he now identifies as Korean. London's announcement of his new identity and the dramatic surgeries he underwent in an effort to actualize it drew attacks on social media. His story has also raised serious questions as to the ethics of cosmetic surgery and consumer-driven medicine in the Western world.

"I identify as Korean. That’s just my culture, that’s my home country…. I also identify as Jimin, that’s my Korean name," London said in a video posted on Twitter, which has already been viewed more than four million times. "This is something that you guys know if you’ve followed my journey for the last eight years. I’ve really struggled with identity issues, with who I am."

London’s drive to change his identity led him to undergo 18 plastic surgeries over eight years, at a price of $200,000, rendering London unrecognizable to those who knew him growing up.

London spoke to the Washington Free Beacon in the wake of the revelation of his Korean identity. "I started to learn about Korea and love Korea when in 2013, I went there to teach English for a year," London said. "Korea was so warm and welcoming; it was almost like a paradise. For me it was an ideal world. I just felt I wanted to be a part of that."

Not content to merely join the millions of foreigners living in South Korea, London became convinced that he was born in the wrong body. "I do identify as Korean, I don’t identify as British. I feel like I should have been born in Korea because in that culture, everything from the mannerisms to the way they look is what I identify with," London said. His cosmetic procedures began in 2013 soon after he returned to his native Britain. The surgeries were meant to help London’s face emulate the features of BTS superstar Jimin, a singer with whom London is Obsessed.

"I've had five rhinoplasties now, which is the most; I’ve had my jawbone shaved down; I’ve had my chin cut off and made to be more pointy; I also had my cheekbones shaved down to make my face more small, more cute, and to have more of the Korean aesthetic which is more about kind of small, cute, and symmetrical features," London said. "All the K-pop stars look so beautiful, they look so perfect with the symmetry and that’s what led me to my fascination."

That a doctor deemed it appropriate to indulge London’s fantasies reflects a concerning trend in the relationship between health care and the public. Western-trained doctors traditionally avoided operating on healthy tissue, which distinguished medicine from businesses that cater wholly to customers' tastes.

"As medicine increasingly puts itself in this position of being in the service of emancipatory projects that help self-determination efforts, using all sorts of new technologies, it is a deep corruption," University of Virginia bioethicist Joseph Davis told the Free Beacon. "Sometimes it’s called a kind of consumerism, or that medicine has become more consumerist…. My view is that what medicine is losing is its ethical nature."

London’s eye surgeries were performed by physicians at Longevita, a medical tourism company registered in the United Kingdom and Istanbul. For Brits looking to save money on elective procedures, Longevita connects them with "Leading Surgeons" overseas. Longevita's website warns that those who forgo spending thousands on cosmetic surgery "may get plagued with feelings of dissatisfaction and unhappiness."

But there’s virtually no evidence that the discontent felt by individuals like London will be alleviated in the long term by cosmetic surgery. Myriad studies have reached a far different conclusion on whether even relatively simple operations, such as breast augmentation, increase happiness. A number of studies found that women who undergo breast enlargement procedures saw significantly higher suicide rates, even as women in the West increasingly tell pollsters that they’re open to the idea of, if not planning on getting, cosmetic surgery.

unnamed-1-e1625839401442.jpg
Oli London prior to undergoing 18 plastic surgeries

Longevita’s founder and CEO, Kagan Seymenoglu, defended the surgeries in an interview with the Free Beacon. "I look at it from the patient's perspective—I think everyone has and should have the right and the freedom to do whatever they want on their body, because essentially it's their body, and what is important is how that procedure makes him feel," Seymenoglu said.

Seymenoglu argued that cosmetic surgeries are ultimately the patient's prerogative. "It's not up to anyone but Mr. London himself to decide on his appearance. So, I think the only decision-maker should be the patient himself," Seymenoglu said. "It's not just a matter of ethics, it's a matter of how you perform your duty as a surgeon. So if the patient is in the right mind, and if there is nothing, medically speaking, that is a contradiction—for the surgery, you have to do it, that's your job, that's your duty."

The earliest versions of the Hippocratic Oath cautioned physicians against practicing surgery due to their limited knowledge of the human body and the invasive nature of the practice. During the Renaissance, physicians and the universities that taught them deemed surgery a low, manual trade. In modern times, there has been a paradigm shift in this line of thinking, as surgeons, even in cosmetic professions, are held in higher regard. But some are revisiting this debate, contending that the cosmetic surgeons of today are closer to the gore-stained barber-surgeons of the Middle Ages than to professional and ethical modern doctors.

"There are financial inducements there and social pressures to use medical powers to give people what they want," said doctor and University of California Irvine bioethicist Aaron Kheriaty. "And there’s a strong cultural current of expressive individualism that influences medicine as well to accept these kinds of socially constructed goals and as legitimate hands for medicine."

London's announcement was met with backlash from the public. Fans who had praised his non-binary gender identity heaped scorn on his transracial status. London received thousands of comments from Twitter users ranging from words of support to threats of violence.

London was taken aback by the response from his critics and compared many of his new features to those of celebrities. One of his most recent surgeries aimed to change the shape of his eyes, a procedure that drove many users on social media apoplectic. London defended the practice, arguing that it was a "common" procedure that "many Hollywood stars have received in the past."

"In Asia as well the eye procedure is super common, to have the eyes made slightly wider, to have a double eyelid fold, so what I am doing is just the opposite of what happens in Asia, but that’s why I don’t understand why I have backlash because it’s totally normal in Asia to have these kinds of procedures," London said. It was Pride Month after all, London noted, why are we not celebrating all forms of identity?

The question is more contentious than one may think and has been the subject of papers and inquiries by serious philosophers. The feminist journal Hypatia found itself in the middle of a massive academic controversy after it printed a peer-reviewed article comparing the identities of Caitlyn Jenner, a transgender woman, and Rachel Dolezal, a white woman who identifies as black. Rebecca Tuvel’s March 2017 piece "In Defense of Transracialism" posited "that considerations that support transgenderism extend to transracialism."

"If Dolezal has been subject to racism for over 10 years … is this not sufficient to expose her to an important element of what it's like to be black in a racist society? Moreover, if true, this objection would also apply to trans women who transitioned later in life but did not grow up knowing what it was like to experience sexism," Tuvel wrote.

Tuvel's argument was met with the same level of hostility London faced after his announcement. Hypatia sent out groveling apologies and a number of editors resigned from the publication's board. The implicit response from Tuvel’s critics, presumably most of whom support the most extreme interpretations of gender theory, could be summarized simply: Everyone knows changing your race is insane.

Many surgeons who perform cosmetic procedures on patients like London appear entirely indifferent to the psychological profile of their patient, a departure from the modern Hippocratic Oath, which states that physicians do not "treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being." When examining patients, doctors are traditionally expected to look at the intrinsic purposes and goals built into the medical practice and our understanding of the human body.

Seymenoglu expressed his confidence in London’s mental state and the efficacy of the plastic surgeries. "I think I have no questions about whether he's in the right mind," Seymenoglu said. "It's just his personality and how he wants to look, and maybe there might be a professional element to this as well, because it's his profession as well, having all these social media followers and being an influencer. I think he's doing these things on purpose as well, which is part of his profession."

Seymenoglu gave a generous assessment of an individual who "Married" a cardboard cutout of BTS star Jimin in January 2020. "Because I’m obsessed with Jimin, they get very jealous of me," London said. He remains confident that he will be a "pioneer" for others who share his affliction.

"All the K-pop fans, they actually all identify as Korean," London said. "I do feel that there will be so many people in the world that do identify as a different culture than their own. There are so many people."



Source

© Copyright Original Source

[*Article includes a couple more photos*]

So why exactly do the folks who celebrate it when someone decides to identify as a different gender, praising their decision, and savagely attacking anyone who might think it's a bad idea, now up in arms about someone self-identifying as a different ethnicity deciding to do so?

What exactly is the difference that results in a nearly polar opposite reaction from the same people?

Indeed. If we are going to coddle and humor (and even celebrate) transgenderism, I don't see a logical reason why those arguments would not apply to transracial folks, transabled folks, or heck, even trans-species folks. (trans-age folks are another category as well IIRC).

[Mountain Man]

TikTok sensation

Really? That's a thing?

I'll admit, at first I laughed at this story because it is so absurd, but then I had to repent because I realized I was laughing at someone with a serious mental illness who deserves my pity and not my scorn.

But this is where we are in the world, where people suffering from delusion can find doctors who will enable them by butchering their appearance through cosmetic surgery. It's sad and utterly depraved.

[seanD]

Who said leftist "woke" ideology was consistent or logical?

It's all about authoritarianism: do as we say when we say it, and don't question or we'll punish you.

[tabibito]

The attitude seems to be consistent: Gender appropriation is OK, Cultural appropriation isn't.

ETA: unless you're Pocahontais

[Psychic Missile]

So why exactly do the folks who celebrate it when someone decides to identify as a different gender, praising their decision, and savagely attacking anyone who might think it's a bad idea, now up in arms about someone self-identifying as a different ethnicity deciding to do so?

What exactly is the difference that results in a nearly polar opposite reaction from the same people?

Scientific literacy. There is a scientific basis for genetic and prenatal abnormalities resulting in atypical sex development whereas race is a social construct.

[CivilDiscourse]

Scientific literacy. There is a scientific basis for genetic and prenatal abnormalities resulting in atypical sex development whereas race is a social construct.

Gender is a social construct.

[Starlight]

Who said leftist "woke" ideology was consistent or logical?

In the sense that woke means awareness of injustice, that doesn't seem illogical or inconsistent.

There are, of course, people who try to portray themselves as 'woke', but definitely aren't. I have been known to use the term 'pseudo-woke' to refer to people like that. e.g. Pelosi, Kyrsten Sinema. The term 'pinkwashing' is also sometimes used to describe this fake wokeness.

It's all about authoritarianism: do as we say when we say it, and don't question or we'll punish you.

In the sense that wokeness is about awareness of injustice, it can never be authoritarian, because for an injustice to be occurring someone who isn't woke must be wielding the power to make it occur. In that sense, wokeness always has to be a critique of a powerful entity by a less powerful one, and so cannot be authoritarian.

The attitude seems to be consistent: Gender appropriation is OK, Cultural appropriation isn't.

Among any large group of people, attitudes are never going to be consistent because individuals within the group will hold slightly different opinions for slightly different reasons.

To my mind, transgenderism is pretty simple: It's a matter of harm minimization. If you've got someone who's severely unhappy with their gender, and because 50+ years of scientific research has utterly failed to find a way of treating their mental state to make them happy with their gender, and because letting them change genders empirically alleviates their suffering, then the harm-minimization method is to let them change genders and be kind and compassionate and supportive. Also since it seems the majority of human cultures throughout history have allowed people to opt out of their birth genders, it's nothing new or radical.

I think culture is a much more complex topic, especially its intersection with race. I don't really believe in "cultural appropriation" in the sense of that being a bad thing - cultures are like languages in the sense that they naturally change over time and naturally borrow words/ideas from those around them. I love food from other cultures, to the point where I would happily eat it 100% of the time. I think cultures are hugely important in people's lives, and it's thus important to improve cultures, but I don't see it as important to try and maintain any given culture for the sake of doing so (and it's an effort doomed to fail - see above about natural change).

In general I don't have any opinion at all on trans-racialism as depicted in the OP, as I lack any scientific data to weigh any pros or cons.

In general I would observe that we tend to hope immigrants coming to our countries would 'integrate' into our cultures - i.e. adopt our cultures in such a way they can get on well with us and our society and leave behind the parts of their own cultures that don't mesh well with ours (e.g. honor killings, burkas etc). In that sense it seems like trans-culturalism has always been a thing, and encouraged (even in the bible where foreigners are welcomed so long as they changed to the Israelite religion). And I have zero doubt that conservatives on this forum would strongly encourage immigrants coming to their countries to learn to speak English in order to fit in. Something to ponder, perhaps, is how the transracialism of the OP is or isn't different from the trans-culturalism that humans have historically encouraged from immigrants. (I don't have any opinion on the issue, I'm just thinking about that as I type it).

Anyway, that's why I, as a woke liberal leftist support transgender people out of kindness and compassion and have zero opinion on transracialism. And that contrasts slightly with your declaration above about what you see the typical view as being.

Gender is a social construct.

Indeed. I was about to post that in response to PM's post, and refreshed the thread to find you'd beaten me to it.

[rogue06]

The attitude seems to be consistent: Gender appropriation is OK, Cultural appropriation isn't.

ETA: unless you're Pocahontais

It is inconsistent in that one is not only acceptable but is applauded, whereas the other is seen as wrong. Why?


And don't forget Robert Francis "Beto" O'Rourke. The Irish-American politician who plays at being part Hispanic.

[rogue06]

Scientific literacy. There is a scientific basis for genetic and prenatal abnormalities resulting in atypical sex development whereas race is a social construct.

We're repeatedly told that gender is a social construct.

Try again.

[Gondwanaland]

Scientific literacy. There is a scientific basis for genetic and prenatal abnormalities resulting in atypical sex development

Which aren't gender....

whereas race is a social construct.

But we're told gender is a social construct ALL... THE... TIME..... By transgender folks. So..... sort of shot yourself in the foot there, bud.

[Sparko]

Scientific literacy. There is a scientific basis for genetic and prenatal abnormalities resulting in atypical sex development whereas race is a social construct.

So then shouldn't it be more acceptable to be transracial if that is the case? If there is no such thing as "race" in a biological sense, then why get upset if someone wants to identify as a different race? Hmm?

[Sparko]

Why doesn't he just apply for Korean citizenship? Then he would be legally "Korean"

[rogue06]

Why doesn't he just apply for Korean citizenship? Then he would be legally "Korean"

Because he's an idiot.

[Faber]

London spoke to the Washington Free Beacon in the wake of the revelation of his Korean identity. "I started to learn about Korea and love Korea when in 2013, I went there to teach English for a year," London said. "Korea was so warm and welcoming; it was almost like a paradise. For me it was an ideal world. I just felt I wanted to be a part of that."

He obviously hadn't seen the OTHER Korea.