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One rule for the boys but not for the girls!

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  • One rule for the boys but not for the girls!

    Patriarchy rears its ugly head yet again, in South Africa. Emboldening is mine for emphasis.


    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-57548646

    A proposal by the South African government to legalise polyandry - when a woman has more than one husband at the same time - has led to howls of protest from conservative quarters.

    This does not surprise Professor Collis Machoko, a renowned academic on the topic.

    The objections are "about control," he told the BBC. "African societies are not ready for true equality. We don't know what to do with women we cannot control."



    The usual nonsense that society will collapse if there are dangerous women out of control. Hence they must be subjugated to patriarchal norms and be kept under the authority of men, who of course know what is best for them



    South Africa has one of the world's most liberal constitutions, embracing same-sex marriages for all and polygamy for men.

    Businessman and TV personality Musa Mseleku - who has four wives - is among those opposed to polyandry.

    "This will destroy African culture. What about the children of those people? How will they know their identity?" asks Mr Mseleku, who stars in a South African reality TV show about his polygamous family.

    "The woman cannot now take the role of the man. It's unheard of. Will the woman now pay lobola [bride price] for the man. Will the man be expected to take her surname?"


    Prof Machoko researched polyandry in his country of birth - neighbouring Zimbabwe. He spoke to 20 women and 45 co-husbands who practised it, even though such marriages are socially taboo and not legally recognised.

    "Polyandry, because it is shunned by parts of society, has been forced underground. The secrecy is similar to the one found in freemasons," he said.

    "When confronted by somebody whom they do not trust or do not know, they even deny that such a marriage exists. All this is because of fear of reprisals and persecution
    ."

    His blatant hypocrisy is quite abhorrent as is this male desire to control women with the male need to establish paternity.

    The article continues:


    In polyandry, the woman often initiates the relationships, and invites the husbands to join her union. Some pay the bride price, others opt to contribute to her livelihood. She has the power to remove a co-husband if she believes he is destabilising her other relationships.

    Prof Machoko said love was the main reason the men he interviewed said they had agreed to be co-husbands. They did not want to risk losing their wife.

    Some men also referred to the fact that they did not satisfy their wives sexually, agreeing to the suggestion of a co-husband to avoid divorce or affairs.

    Another reason was infertility - some men consented to the wife taking another husband so that she could have children. In this way, the men "saved face" in public and avoided being stigmatised as "emasculated".

    Prof Machoko said he was unaware of polyandrous marriages in South Africa. Nevertheless, gender rights activists have asked the government to legalise such unions in the interest of equality and choice, as the law currently permits a man to take more than one wife.



    Of course the clerics are opposed to such a proposal. No surprises there.


    The document also proposes giving legal recognition to Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Rastafarian marriages.

    While this has been largely welcomed by the communities concerned, the proposal to legalise polyandry has been condemned by clerics who hold seats in parliament.

    The leader of the opposition African Christian Democratic Party (ACDP), Reverend Kenneth Meshoe, said it would "destroy society".

    "There will come a time when one of the men will say, 'You spend most of the time with that man and not with me' - and there will be conflict between the two men," he added.

    For his part, the leader of the Islamic Al-Jamah party, Ganief Hendricks, said: "You can imagine when a child is born, more DNA tests will be needed to discover who the father is."



    The shock! The horror! Will no one think of the children!


    Asked why it should be any different for women, given he had four wives, he replied: "I've been called a hypocrite because of my marriages but I'd rather speak now than be silent.

    "All I can say it that this is un-African. We cannot change who we are."

    But Prof Machoko said polyandry was once practised in Kenya, the Democratic Republic of Congo and Nigeria, and it is still practised in Gabon, where the law allows it.

    "With the arrival of Christianity and colonisation the role of the woman became diminished. They were no longer equal. Marriage became one of the tools used to establish hierarchy."

    Prof Machoko said concerns about children born from a polyandrous union were rooted in patriarchy.

    "The question of children is an easy one. Whatever children are born from that union are the children of the family."


    And again we see the desire to subjugate women and control their fertility and their choices.

    The Professor is quite right. Irrespective of who fathered the child, that child is part of the family.
    "It ain't necessarily so
    The things that you're liable
    To read in the Bible
    It ain't necessarily so
    ."

    Sportin' Life
    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

  • #2
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Patriarchy rears its ugly head yet again, in South Africa. Emboldening is mine for emphasis.


    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-57548646

    A proposal by the South African government to legalise polyandry - when a woman has more than one husband at the same time - has led to howls of protest from conservative quarters.

    This does not surprise Professor Collis Machoko, a renowned academic on the topic.

    The objections are "about control," he told the BBC. "African societies are not ready for true equality. We don't know what to do with women we cannot control."



    The usual nonsense that society will collapse if there are dangerous women out of control. Hence they must be subjugated to patriarchal norms and be kept under the authority of men, who of course know what is best for them



    South Africa has one of the world's most liberal constitutions, embracing same-sex marriages for all and polygamy for men.

    Businessman and TV personality Musa Mseleku - who has four wives - is among those opposed to polyandry.

    "This will destroy African culture. What about the children of those people? How will they know their identity?" asks Mr Mseleku, who stars in a South African reality TV show about his polygamous family.

    "The woman cannot now take the role of the man. It's unheard of. Will the woman now pay lobola [bride price] for the man. Will the man be expected to take her surname?"


    Prof Machoko researched polyandry in his country of birth - neighbouring Zimbabwe. He spoke to 20 women and 45 co-husbands who practised it, even though such marriages are socially taboo and not legally recognised.

    "Polyandry, because it is shunned by parts of society, has been forced underground. The secrecy is similar to the one found in freemasons," he said.

    "When confronted by somebody whom they do not trust or do not know, they even deny that such a marriage exists. All this is because of fear of reprisals and persecution
    ."

    His blatant hypocrisy is quite abhorrent as is this male desire to control women with the male need to establish paternity.

    The article continues:


    In polyandry, the woman often initiates the relationships, and invites the husbands to join her union. Some pay the bride price, others opt to contribute to her livelihood. She has the power to remove a co-husband if she believes he is destabilising her other relationships.

    Prof Machoko said love was the main reason the men he interviewed said they had agreed to be co-husbands. They did not want to risk losing their wife.

    Some men also referred to the fact that they did not satisfy their wives sexually, agreeing to the suggestion of a co-husband to avoid divorce or affairs.

    Another reason was infertility - some men consented to the wife taking another husband so that she could have children. In this way, the men "saved face" in public and avoided being stigmatised as "emasculated".

    Prof Machoko said he was unaware of polyandrous marriages in South Africa. Nevertheless, gender rights activists have asked the government to legalise such unions in the interest of equality and choice, as the law currently permits a man to take more than one wife.



    Of course the clerics are opposed to such a proposal. No surprises there.


    The document also proposes giving legal recognition to Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Rastafarian marriages.

    While this has been largely welcomed by the communities concerned, the proposal to legalise polyandry has been condemned by clerics who hold seats in parliament.

    The leader of the opposition African Christian Democratic Party (ACDP), Reverend Kenneth Meshoe, said it would "destroy society".

    "There will come a time when one of the men will say, 'You spend most of the time with that man and not with me' - and there will be conflict between the two men," he added.

    For his part, the leader of the Islamic Al-Jamah party, Ganief Hendricks, said: "You can imagine when a child is born, more DNA tests will be needed to discover who the father is."



    The shock! The horror! Will no one think of the children!


    Asked why it should be any different for women, given he had four wives, he replied: "I've been called a hypocrite because of my marriages but I'd rather speak now than be silent.

    "All I can say it that this is un-African. We cannot change who we are."

    But Prof Machoko said polyandry was once practised in Kenya, the Democratic Republic of Congo and Nigeria, and it is still practised in Gabon, where the law allows it.

    "With the arrival of Christianity and colonisation the role of the woman became diminished. They were no longer equal. Marriage became one of the tools used to establish hierarchy."

    Prof Machoko said concerns about children born from a polyandrous union were rooted in patriarchy.

    "The question of children is an easy one. Whatever children are born from that union are the children of the family."


    And again we see the desire to subjugate women and control their fertility and their choices.

    The Professor is quite right. Irrespective of who fathered the child, that child is part of the family.
    I think there are a lot of reasons not to practice polygamy or polyandry. But polyandry, I would expect, would be the more difficult of the two to make work for reasons that are not easy to compensate for. Not the least of which is the greater amount of testosterone and more aggressive nature of men.

    Men and women can be given equal opportunity in many things, but they are not 'the same'
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

      I think there are a lot of reasons not to practice polygamy or polyandry. But polyandry, I would expect, would be the more difficult of the two to make work for reasons that are not easy to compensate for. Not the least of which is the greater amount of testosterone and more aggressive nature of men.

      Men and women can be given equal opportunity in many things, but they are not 'the same'
      The point being made is that this is blatant hypocrisy.

      South African law permits polygyny but women are not permitted to practise polyandry. The "reasons" given are specious and based on patriarchal norms that repress women and our fertility. To wit the nonsense about DNA tests.

      It comes down to men wanting to regulate women and a deeply laid fear of women who cannot be controlled i.e. subjugated to male dominance and male ascendancy.

      As was pointed out polyandry was a custom in parts of Africa and is legal in Gabon.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post



        As was pointed out polyandry was a custom in parts of Africa and is legal in Gabon.
        The old, "but all my friend's moms let them do it" reasoning.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          The old, "but all my friend's moms let them do it" reasoning.
          When rogue has nothing useful to add he writes nonsense.
          "It ain't necessarily so
          The things that you're liable
          To read in the Bible
          It ain't necessarily so
          ."

          Sportin' Life
          Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm sure there are crazier things happening in South Africa. And more interesting.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              The point being made is that this is blatant hypocrisy.

              South African law permits polygyny but women are not permitted to practise polyandry. The "reasons" given are specious and based on patriarchal norms that repress women and our fertility. To wit the nonsense about DNA tests.

              It comes down to men wanting to regulate women and a deeply laid fear of women who cannot be controlled i.e. subjugated to male dominance and male ascendancy.

              As was pointed out polyandry was a custom in parts of Africa and is legal in Gabon.
              It is not hypocrisy if there are valid reasons that polygamy is workable and polyandry is not. And that is the theoretical point I'm making. (I'm not arguing for either polygamy or polyandry)

              my point is there are limits to which the modern ideal of equality of the sexes fails just as badly as the oppression of women by men fails. The differences between the sexes - unlike the races - are not merely superficial.
              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                It is not hypocrisy if there are valid reasons that polygamy is workable and polyandry is not. And that is the theoretical point I'm making. (I'm not arguing for either polygamy or polyandry)

                my point is there are limits to which the modern ideal of equality of the sexes fails just as badly as the oppression of women by men fails. The differences between the sexes - unlike the races - are not merely superficial.
                At least from the examples I've seen here in North America, I'd argue that polygamy does not work either.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  Patriarchy rears its ugly head yet again, in South Africa. Emboldening is mine for emphasis.


                  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-57548646

                  A proposal by the South African government to legalise polyandry - when a woman has more than one husband at the same time - has led to howls of protest from conservative quarters.

                  This does not surprise Professor Collis Machoko, a renowned academic on the topic.

                  The objections are "about control," he told the BBC. "African societies are not ready for true equality. We don't know what to do with women we cannot control."



                  The usual nonsense that society will collapse if there are dangerous women out of control. Hence they must be subjugated to patriarchal norms and be kept under the authority of men, who of course know what is best for them



                  South Africa has one of the world's most liberal constitutions, embracing same-sex marriages for all and polygamy for men.

                  Businessman and TV personality Musa Mseleku - who has four wives - is among those opposed to polyandry.

                  "This will destroy African culture. What about the children of those people? How will they know their identity?" asks Mr Mseleku, who stars in a South African reality TV show about his polygamous family.

                  "The woman cannot now take the role of the man. It's unheard of. Will the woman now pay lobola [bride price] for the man. Will the man be expected to take her surname?"


                  Prof Machoko researched polyandry in his country of birth - neighbouring Zimbabwe. He spoke to 20 women and 45 co-husbands who practised it, even though such marriages are socially taboo and not legally recognised.

                  "Polyandry, because it is shunned by parts of society, has been forced underground. The secrecy is similar to the one found in freemasons," he said.

                  "When confronted by somebody whom they do not trust or do not know, they even deny that such a marriage exists. All this is because of fear of reprisals and persecution
                  ."

                  His blatant hypocrisy is quite abhorrent as is this male desire to control women with the male need to establish paternity.

                  The article continues:


                  In polyandry, the woman often initiates the relationships, and invites the husbands to join her union. Some pay the bride price, others opt to contribute to her livelihood. She has the power to remove a co-husband if she believes he is destabilising her other relationships.

                  Prof Machoko said love was the main reason the men he interviewed said they had agreed to be co-husbands. They did not want to risk losing their wife.

                  Some men also referred to the fact that they did not satisfy their wives sexually, agreeing to the suggestion of a co-husband to avoid divorce or affairs.

                  Another reason was infertility - some men consented to the wife taking another husband so that she could have children. In this way, the men "saved face" in public and avoided being stigmatised as "emasculated".

                  Prof Machoko said he was unaware of polyandrous marriages in South Africa. Nevertheless, gender rights activists have asked the government to legalise such unions in the interest of equality and choice, as the law currently permits a man to take more than one wife.



                  Of course the clerics are opposed to such a proposal. No surprises there.


                  The document also proposes giving legal recognition to Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and Rastafarian marriages.

                  While this has been largely welcomed by the communities concerned, the proposal to legalise polyandry has been condemned by clerics who hold seats in parliament.

                  The leader of the opposition African Christian Democratic Party (ACDP), Reverend Kenneth Meshoe, said it would "destroy society".

                  "There will come a time when one of the men will say, 'You spend most of the time with that man and not with me' - and there will be conflict between the two men," he added.

                  For his part, the leader of the Islamic Al-Jamah party, Ganief Hendricks, said: "You can imagine when a child is born, more DNA tests will be needed to discover who the father is."



                  The shock! The horror! Will no one think of the children!


                  Asked why it should be any different for women, given he had four wives, he replied: "I've been called a hypocrite because of my marriages but I'd rather speak now than be silent.

                  "All I can say it that this is un-African. We cannot change who we are."

                  But Prof Machoko said polyandry was once practised in Kenya, the Democratic Republic of Congo and Nigeria, and it is still practised in Gabon, where the law allows it.

                  "With the arrival of Christianity and colonisation the role of the woman became diminished. They were no longer equal. Marriage became one of the tools used to establish hierarchy."

                  Prof Machoko said concerns about children born from a polyandrous union were rooted in patriarchy.

                  "The question of children is an easy one. Whatever children are born from that union are the children of the family."


                  And again we see the desire to subjugate women and control their fertility and their choices.

                  The Professor is quite right. Irrespective of who fathered the child, that child is part of the family.
                  Interesting, I didn't know they had legalized polygyny there. Certainly if that's the case polyandry should be legal, and opposition in this case especially smacks of discrimination against women

                  (I think polygamy in general should be legal here in the US as well)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    At least from the examples I've seen here in North America, I'd argue that polygamy does not work either.
                    For one thing, more wives means more mother-in-laws.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                      For one thing, more wives means more mother-in-laws.
                      In all seriousness, it appears that it is fairly common for the man to marry sisters.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        As far as I know, none of us are from South Africa, and none of us are engaging in Polygyny or Polyandry.

                        So, all that's really left is to make a comment about how it's "Interesting" that people who are not impacted in any way with this practice or country are creating threads and commenting about it.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
                          As far as I know, none of us are from South Africa, and none of us are engaging in Polygyny or Polyandry.

                          So, all that's really left is to make a comment about how it's "Interesting" that people who are not impacted in any way with this practice or country are creating threads and commenting about it.
                          Being offended on other people's behalf is what liberals do.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            In all seriousness, it appears that it is fairly common for the man to marry sisters.
                            I've heard the term "sister wives", but I wasn't aware that it implied a biological relation.

                            On a somewhat similar note, Eric Clapton and George Harrison remained good friends even after the one divorced and the other married the woman on the rebound. They jokingly referred to each other as "husbands-in-law".
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              In all seriousness, it appears that it is fairly common for the man to marry sisters.
                              Ah, pulling a Jacob.

                              Comment

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