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Voting Hypothetical

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  • Voting Hypothetical

    I want to explore a large hypothetical.

    Let's imagine a scenario. There's a state called Statington, USA. In Statington, a tradition has developed around polling places. That tradition is having a live band play at polling stations. By Tradition, the bands play only instrumental classical music, and no political messages, overt or subtle are ever given. The live bands are 100% entirely non-political, song choices are random, band outfits are mixed and bland solid colors that are never chosen to match a particular party or candidate, the band members never make any statements or gestures.

    It has been discovered that having a live band playing increases voter turnout, but the impact is far stronger for members of Party A as opposed to Party B. Party B, now holds the power in Statington, USA. They have introduced legislation to bar live bands from polling places. Party A objects, stating that the intention is to suppress the votes of Party A. Party B points out that there is no right to live music at the polling place, and that no person from Party A has had their ability to vote changed in any way. They point out that a member of Part A is just as free to go to the polls as they've always been.

    Where would you side on this question?

  • #2
    Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
    I want to explore a large hypothetical.

    Let's imagine a scenario. There's a state called Statington, USA. In Statington, a tradition has developed around polling places. That tradition is having a live band play at polling stations. By Tradition, the bands play only instrumental classical music, and no political messages, overt or subtle are ever given. The live bands are 100% entirely non-political, song choices are random, band outfits are mixed and bland solid colors that are never chosen to match a particular party or candidate, the band members never make any statements or gestures.

    It has been discovered that having a live band playing increases voter turnout, but the impact is far stronger for members of Party A as opposed to Party B. Party B, now holds the power in Statington, USA. They have introduced legislation to bar live bands from polling places. Party A objects, stating that the intention is to suppress the votes of Party A. Party B points out that there is no right to live music at the polling place, and that no person from Party A has had their ability to vote changed in any way. They point out that a member of Part A is just as free to go to the polls as they've always been.

    Where would you side on this question?
    This reminds me of some discussions concerning American flags flying at voting places. Awhile back a study found that seeing an American flag tended to make Americans feel more patriotic. And the more patriotic they feel the more likely they are to vote Republican. Hence Democrats in several locations have moved to have flags removed from polling places.

    Personally, I think that the Democrats should be more concerned that patriotism is associated with their rivals and not them.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
      Where would you side on this question?
      If it creates a bias in the election, it's biased.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        This reminds me of some discussions concerning American flags flying at voting places. Awhile back a study found that seeing an American flag tended to make Americans feel more patriotic. And the more patriotic they feel the more likely they are to vote Republican. Hence Democrats in several locations have moved to have flags removed from polling places.

        Personally, I think that the Democrats should be more concerned that patriotism is associated with their rivals and not them.
        Pics or it didn't happen.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

          If it creates a bias in the election, it's biased.
          Party B argues that having the live bands creates a bias in the election.
          Party A argues that removing the live bands creates a bias in the election.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

            Pics or it didn't happen.
            I believe this was the study: https://www.jstor.org/stable/25835494

            I'll see if I can find something on flags removed from polling places later since it'll require a lot of sifting through stories about BLM and gay pride flags at polling places, someone waving a Trump flag outside a polling place in Virginia, and initiatives concerning removing Confederate flags.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

              If it creates a bias in the election, it's biased.
              Not a sufficient response. As the OP is presented, both the original scenario and the no-music scenario create "bias."
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              • #8
                Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                Party B argues that having the live bands creates a bias in the election.
                Party A argues that removing the live bands creates a bias in the election.
                According to your hypothetical, the numbers say it creates a bias over the null case, doing nothing. Party A is in violation of arithmetic.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Ban them, I say. It's a polling place, not a concert hall.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    I believe this was the study: https://www.jstor.org/stable/25835494

                    I'll see if I can find something on flags removed from polling places later since it'll require a lot of sifting through stories about BLM and gay pride flags at polling places, someone waving a Trump flag outside a polling place in Virginia, and initiatives concerning removing Confederate flags.
                    I'm seeing n = 191, with half assigned to control, making for an effective n of 95, which is tiny tiny. Unsurprisingly, the results have extremely large uncertainties.

                    2021-06-24_14-30-51.jpg

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

                      I'm seeing n = 191, with half assigned to control, making for an effective n of 95, which is tiny tiny. Unsurprisingly, the results have extremely large uncertainties.

                      2021-06-24_14-30-51.jpg
                      American-Flag.jpg

                      Yes! I have successfully converted Juvenal into a Republican!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
                        I want to explore a large hypothetical.

                        Let's imagine a scenario. There's a state called Statington, USA. In Statington, a tradition has developed around polling places. That tradition is having a live band play at polling stations. By Tradition, the bands play only instrumental classical music, and no political messages, overt or subtle are ever given. The live bands are 100% entirely non-political, song choices are random, band outfits are mixed and bland solid colors that are never chosen to match a particular party or candidate, the band members never make any statements or gestures.

                        It has been discovered that having a live band playing increases voter turnout, but the impact is far stronger for members of Party A as opposed to Party B. Party B, now holds the power in Statington, USA. They have introduced legislation to bar live bands from polling places. Party A objects, stating that the intention is to suppress the votes of Party A. Party B points out that there is no right to live music at the polling place, and that no person from Party A has had their ability to vote changed in any way. They point out that a member of Part A is just as free to go to the polls as they've always been.

                        Where would you side on this question?
                        That would depend on whether Party B had some reasonable motive other than gaining an electoral advantage to bar live bands from polling places. (And assuming I'm not a member of either party, since that wasn't specified.)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          My answer depends on which party I belong to.


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
                            I want to explore a large hypothetical.

                            Let's imagine a scenario. There's a state called Statington, USA. In Statington, a tradition has developed around polling places. That tradition is having a live band play at polling stations. By Tradition, the bands play only instrumental classical music, and no political messages, overt or subtle are ever given. The live bands are 100% entirely non-political, song choices are random, band outfits are mixed and bland solid colors that are never chosen to match a particular party or candidate, the band members never make any statements or gestures.

                            It has been discovered that having a live band playing increases voter turnout, but the impact is far stronger for members of Party A as opposed to Party B. Party B, now holds the power in Statington, USA. They have introduced legislation to bar live bands from polling places. Party A objects, stating that the intention is to suppress the votes of Party A. Party B points out that there is no right to live music at the polling place, and that no person from Party A has had their ability to vote changed in any way. They point out that a member of Part A is just as free to go to the polls as they've always been.

                            Where would you side on this question?
                            This is a bit more complicated than it seems: first we need to ask - is the activity (1) removing a barrier or (2) providing an incentive.

                            Removing barriers will tend to produce apparent biases any time all that district's voters are not affected equally by the existing barriers to voting. So what must be understood about removing barriers is that removing barriers is removing existing biasing agents.

                            Providing incentives MUST incentivize equally or they create bias.

                            The band is essentially an incentive. IT is supposed to attract more voters. But it doesn't do so equally, And so it creates a bias, so I would say the band playing must stop.

                            Where it gets complicated is when an incentive is provided as the solution to a barrier, or a barrier is created as part of trying to balance the bias introduced by an incentive.


                            In the end though, it really is neither practical or possible to make a polling place be to the nth degree equally accessible, or fun, or attractive to all voters. And because as citizens of a democracy it is our right, privilege, and responsibility to vote we must also bear a certain responsibility to make reasonable efforts to overcome any difficulty that may exist. What is required is that we make sure impediments do not exist which create a significant hardship differential one demographic to another.

                            My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                            If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                            This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                              This is a bit more complicated than it seems: first we need to ask - is the activity (1) removing a barrier or (2) providing an incentive.

                              Removing barriers will tend to produce apparent biases any time all that district's voters are not affected equally by the existing barriers to voting. So what must be understood about removing barriers is that removing barriers is removing existing biasing agents.

                              Providing incentives MUST incentivize equally or they create bias.

                              The band is essentially an incentive. IT is supposed to attract more voters. But it doesn't do so equally, And so it creates a bias, so I would say the band playing must stop.

                              Where it gets complicated is when an incentive is provided as the solution to a barrier, or a barrier is created as part of trying to balance the bias introduced by an incentive.


                              In the end though, it really is neither practical or possible to make a polling place be to the nth degree equally accessible, or fun, or attractive to all voters. And because as citizens of a democracy it is our right, privilege, and responsibility to vote we must also bear a certain responsibility to make reasonable efforts to overcome any difficulty that may exist. What is required is that we make sure impediments do not exist which create a significant hardship differential one demographic to another.
                              As I mentioned Statington's band grew as a tradition. This means that neither party was responsible for the bands. They are, essentially, status quo.

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