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  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

    Ah yes - the Bereans. Not good enough to have a miracle worker telling them about heaven and Logos' sojourn on Earth, they had to have his words verified by holy writ into the bargain. And they were commended for it. One of my favourite passages.

    Just by way of supplement
    John 10:37 [[Jesus]]“If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”
    1 Cor 2: 4 [[Paul]]my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
    Paul in particular repeatedly notes how what he was teaching he had first received from others (I Corinthians 15:3) and this can be verified.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Paul in particular repeatedly notes how what he was teaching he had first received from others (I Corinthians 15:3) and this can be verified.
      An interesting point - I had not noticed the significance of "I received" until now. Something to investigate a few months hence.
      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
      .
      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
      Scripture before Tradition:
      but that won't prevent others from
      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
      of the right to call yourself Christian.

      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

      Comment


      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

        An interesting point - I had not noticed the significance of "I received" until now. Something to investigate a few months hence.
        Immediately following is a creedal statement that is AFAICT universally agreed[1] to precede Paul and be part of what he received. The only debate seems to revolve over just how early.






        1. given that there are always going to be outliers, I'm sure that an exception can be dredged up. Sort of like how prior to the 1990s the concept that birds had evolved from dinosaurs was an old one but few took it seriously, and how now, thanks to tons of new evidence, about the only person who disagrees is the ornithologist Alan Feduccia. And he thinks they evolved from an earlier group from which he thinks that both dinosaurs and birds evolved from.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          Just so.

          Also, just so.

          Also, just so.


          It is an opinion that I share.
          Cool..... no probs.


          Yet you, like everyone else, accept things on the basis of faith.
          That a number 6 bus will come? Faith.
          That my wife is safe when out? Faith.

          You take second and third person testimony as valid, as does everyone else.
          No...... as possible, not valid.


          Not everything known to science is verifiable by ordinary people, not everything in science is understandable without advanced training - and a scant few things can't be understood even with advanced training. We accept second and third person testimony on a daily basis. [[not to mention: It is also reasonable to assume that the amount wholly unknown to science vastly outweighs that which is known.]
          No.....!!!!!! Not so. I treat self acclaimed experts' and scientists' claims with caution. Put ten 'experts' on a subject in the same room and see how they (don't) get on.


          On that we disagree. I won't insist that basketball clubs should accommodate netball clubs; nor that German, Italian, Polish et al clubs should be open to all. Nor do I object to women's only gymnasiums (I do object to objections to men's only gymnasiums). Sometimes it is a good thing to simply get together with like minded others. Church history is replete with examples of the kind of atrocities that can come of not allowing others to be different. Just one example, some churches until the fifth century commemorated Nisan 14, the anniversary of the day of crucifixion; others considered that it was proper to commemorate the anniversary of Christ's resurrection (on a Sunday). Those congregations lived in separate harmony until Constantine declared that "there can be only one." The outcome was civil war between the congregations.
          All those objections.
          Where I live, Sikhs, Muslims, Hindus, Agnostics, Atheists, Christians etc, and the odd Deist live close together. Acknowledgement is one step towards harmony.

          Nope. That assessment is entirely a product of your own imagination. There was some difficulty in determining how to answer your question to your satisfaction. You don't have to believe me, but you have no evidence beyond your own prejudice to support the claim.
          Well, one thing is highly probable, that whenever you think of G-John's version of that last week, you'll know what Jesus really did according to G-Mark.

          It is a problem I encounter often enough. More often at second hand by atheists drawing on teachings by theologians who couldn't pass a reading comprehension test designed for ten year olds.
          I don't take a lot of interest in theologians, I just read the NT for myself, and study as much history of Early1st century Palestine as is available.

          But the incompatibilities need to be acknowledged, and that means leaving living room for others, not forcing them together.
          Then Christians need to start with each other.

          Do you really think that Sharia law is compatible with our concepts of justice, and that our communities should accommodate it? Homosexuality is a capital crime under Sharia law.
          Much of Sharia law mirrors Western legislations. A Christian Pastor in Denver (with a large congregation) wants to see Old Testament Law returned, with public executions for many offences, and public floggings for many others. Muslims carrying out patrols in some Norther UK cities were in fact acting legally, just like any other neighbourhood-watch groups. It's only when extremist nutters try to enforce their own ideas upon others that it becomes unlawful/criminal here.

          Or perhaps you would prefer atheist law as practiced by North Korea, where any form of dissent is at risk of being considered treason.
          I'm happy with our present secular legislation here.
          North Korea is no example of atheist's characters. I know many and they are most humane.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by eider View Post
            Much of Sharia law mirrors Western legislations. A Christian Pastor in Denver (with a large congregation) wants to see Old Testament Law returned, with public executions for many offences, and public floggings for many others. Muslims carrying out patrols in some Norther UK cities were in fact acting legally, just like any other neighbourhood-watch groups. It's only when extremist nutters try to enforce their own ideas upon others that it becomes unlawful/criminal here.

            I'm happy with our present secular legislation here.
            North Korea is no example of atheist's characters. I know many and they are most humane.
            When these "extremist nutters" of the type you speak of seize control of a population they tend to represent the population in the opinions of many, but you are aware that what a government can force its population to do does not always reflect the attitude and desire of the population. Perhaps keep that in mind when you speak of the atrocities committed by the churches in times past ... and consider whether it is more appropriate to view matters from the same perspective that you view the people of North Korea and Muslim communities.

            As for the Pastor that you speak of - no Christian would call him brother.


            1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
            .
            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
            Scripture before Tradition:
            but that won't prevent others from
            taking it upon themselves to deprive you
            of the right to call yourself Christian.

            ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

            Comment


            • Originally posted by eider View Post



              Much of Sharia law mirrors Western legislations. A Christian Pastor in Denver (with a large congregation) wants to see Old Testament Law returned, with public executions for many offences, and public floggings for many others. Muslims carrying out patrols in some Norther UK cities were in fact acting legally, just like any other neighbourhood-watch groups. It's only when extremist nutters try to enforce their own ideas upon others that it becomes unlawful/criminal here.
              Do you have this pastor's name?

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Interesting point made by Holding in one of his videos: there is actually nothing in the Bible that would prohibit someone from adopting the Old Covenant instead of the New, but then they would be bound by the whole Old Covenant, including ritual practices like offering sacrifices, shunning certain foods, not wearing certain fabrics, not working on the Sabbath, etc. So if there's a pastor in Denver who wants to see Old Testament law return, he better think long and hard about how it's going to impact him.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  Do you have this pastor's name?
                  The one the came immediately to mind was Westborough, though no doubt there are many others.

                  Mountain Man

                  The Old Covenant having passed away is what makes the New Covenant possible. While JPH is technically correct, adopting the Old Covenant would be an attempt to re-enter a covenant that God has repudiated.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                    The one the came immediately to mind was Westborough, though no doubt there are many others.
                    Westborough isn't close to Denver and not exactly a large "church." I asked because I couldn't find anything on it even after adding things like dominion theology into the search.


                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by eider View Post
                      Cool..... no probs.



                      T: Yet you, like everyone else, accept things on the basis of faith.

                      E:That a number 6 bus will come? Faith. That my wife is safe when out? Faith.

                      That's it in a nutshell. Past events are taken as evidence of how future events will play out.(I've known people to miss a bus because it is always ten minutes late.) Customary action grants a reasonable assurance of future outcomes. That is the background information provided for the "faith is the evidence of things hoped for" statement in the Bible.

                      No...... as possible, not valid.
                      I take it as valid that pearls come from oysters. I have never seen for myself that it is so, but I accept second and third hand testimony that it is so, and compelling enough that I don't feel the need to investigate those claims. Many claims that I accept as valid would require background knowledge and understanding that I simply don't have before I could verify them. Exoplanets? I see videos of photos and listen to explanations of what those photos signify. But I rely on the idea that the people explaining all that are both honest (about the subject in hand) and correctly interpreting the data.

                      My daughter's science teacher some years ago attempted to demonstrate the "gravity is a constant" story by getting a student to drop two objects simultaneously from a second floor window. It went horribly wrong, so the teacher had the demonstration repeated with different objects, but didn't explain what had caused the problem. In the first demonstration, one of the objects was a loose fill purple cow plushy - so I had to explain the concept of terminal velocity before my daughter fully accepted the idea that gravity is a constant. Her own observations and experience had until then called the theory into doubt, a problem that a science teacher presumably should have been able to avert.

                      Well, one thing is highly probable, that whenever you think of G-John's version of that last week, you'll know what Jesus really did according to G-Mark.
                      True enough, I hadn't noticed that particular discrepancy until it was brought up here.


                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                        When these "extremist nutters" of the type you speak of seize control of a population they tend to represent the population in the opinions of many, but you are aware that what a government can force its population to do does not always reflect the attitude and desire of the population. Perhaps keep that in mind when you speak of the atrocities committed by the churches in times past ... and consider whether it is more appropriate to view matters from the same perspective that you view the people of North Korea and Muslim communities.
                        Don't put words in my mouth. I was speaking about Christian extremists nuts as well as other groups. And I would not place Muslim countries beside an atheist one like Korea.


                        As for the Pastor that you speak of - no Christian would call him brother.
                        Well, the many members on his Christian on-line forum do.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                          That's it in a nutshell. Past events are taken as evidence of how future events will play out.(I've known people to miss a bus because it is always ten minutes late.) Customary action grants a reasonable assurance of future outcomes. That is the background information provided for the "faith is the evidence of things hoped for" statement in the Bible.
                          I acknowledge anyone's faith, so long as it doesn't cause harm or hardship to others.

                          I take it as valid that pearls come from oysters. I have never seen for myself that it is so, but I accept second and third hand testimony that it is so, and compelling enough that I don't feel the need to investigate those claims.
                          Yes, they do. I collect and cook foreshore oysters quite frequently and during one meal many years ago as I ate an oyster I sensed and involuntarily spat out a pearl which bounced around the dining room, it's now set in a ring which I caste for it.
                          Pearls come from other places as well, though. Freshwater clams.


                          Many claims that I accept as valid would require background knowledge and understanding that I simply don't have before I could verify them. Exoplanets? I see videos of photos and listen to explanations of what those photos signify. But I rely on the idea that the people explaining all that are both honest (about the subject in hand) and correctly interpreting the data.
                          Yep..... I accept distant exo-planets as real. Folks like Professor Brian Cox I trust, and his films about evolution.

                          My daughter's science teacher some years ago attempted to demonstrate the "gravity is a constant" story by getting a student to drop two objects simultaneously from a second floor window. It went horribly wrong, so the teacher had the demonstration repeated with different objects, but didn't explain what had caused the problem. In the first demonstration, one of the objects was a loose fill purple cow plushy - so I had to explain the concept of terminal velocity before my daughter fully accepted the idea that gravity is a constant. Her own observations and experience had until then called the theory into doubt, a problem that a science teacher presumably should have been able to avert.
                          Sure..... the teacher overlooked 'atmosphere' I guess.
                          I'm told that (without atmosphere) a feather falls towards gravity as fast as a brick; I won't mind if my neighhbour throws feathers at my windows...... but bricks? !!!!

                          True enough, I hadn't noticed that particular discrepancy until it was brought up here.
                          That's cool.... no probs.
                          I trawl the gospels for any snippets of info..... as well as any historical or archaeological info.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            Interesting point made by Holding in one of his videos: there is actually nothing in the Bible that would prohibit someone from adopting the Old Covenant instead of the New, but then they would be bound by the whole Old Covenant, including ritual practices like offering sacrifices, shunning certain foods, not wearing certain fabrics, not working on the Sabbath, etc. So if there's a pastor in Denver who wants to see Old Testament law return, he better think long and hard about how it's going to impact him.
                            Good point.
                            Last time I read about him, he wants a theonomy (??) with a king in place, and judges ruling throughout.

                            How would you like a king?
                            We're going to get one here, without the Old Covenant stuff, but you should see the regalia that is worn during any coronation.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by eider View Post
                              How would you like a king?
                              We're going to get one here, without the Old Covenant stuff, but you should see the regalia that is worn during any coronation.
                              I'm wondering if Prince Charles will step aside in favour of his son when the time comes.

                              I'm told that (without atmosphere) a feather falls towards gravity as fast as a brick;


                              From 2:36 in the BBC video. Of course, one must take on faith that the videos are genuine.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by tabibito View Post



                                From 2:36 in the BBC video. Of course, one must take on faith that the videos are genuine.
                                One would hope the above is slightly sarcastic, and that you aren't seriously suggesting the videos aren't genuine

                                I do love to watch the shows by Brian Cox though - his obvious love of his subject is a little infectious

                                Comment

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