"go, sell all that you have and give to the poor..."

[mossrose]

Found this picture of HA.

lalala.gif

[Gondwanaland]

In other words you do not appear to have any relevant information and you clearly have no idea about what you are claiming to know.

You have arrived on this thread rather in the manner of the proverbial barber's cat.

He doesn't have any notable achievements. He wrote a couple books and was a professor. He was not the highly respected scholar you tried to prop him ip as. And you keep digging your grave on this hill because of your ego

[NorrinRadd]

That would count as a single citation. And from what you say, only to refute him.

Typically, the works of "reputed and respected scholars" are being repeatedly cited by others.

Witherington cites Pervo over a dozen times in footnotes, but the bibliography lists only one book by Pervo: Profit and Delight: The Literary Genre of the Acts of the Apostles. BW3's commentary is from 1998. It would be interesting to see if Keener's more recent Acts commentaries make any use of Pervo.

And I did not mean to imply BW3 was directly refuting Pervo. He did not cite him at that particular point. He reached his own conclusion based on the vocabulary, grammar, textual context, and the supposed cultural context. It's a conclusion that seems obvious to me (based on just the textual context), and apparently disagrees with Pervo.

So, that nit-pickery aside, yeah, Pervo doesn't seem to be a huge deal.

[Mountain Man]

He doesn't have any notable achievements. He wrote a couple books and was a professor. He was not the highly respected scholar you tried to prop him ip as. And you keep digging your grave on this hill because of your ego

I wish I could have seen the look on her face when she found out he was a pedophile.

[NorrinRadd]

I have not read every post, but ISTM that it was only in the last page or so that anyone -- HA, specifically -- compared the three Synoptics. This is, to me, an interesting point.

Evangelicals believe that all four Gospels are divinely inspired and authoritative, and that each one truthfully records what God wanted each author to record about the life and teachings of Jesus. We also believe that there was an actual life of Jesus from which the accounts were drawn. We understand that it is literally impossible to perfectly harmonize every detail of the four Gospels, or even of the three Synoptics, and we're generally ok with that.

In constructing a "Gospel harmony" (the only one I've used to any extent is A Harmony of the Four Gospels by Orville E. Daniel), where similar events or teachings are covered, but with differences, the author can choose to regard them as separate events (as usually happens with the "cleansing of the Temple"), or as differing perspectives on a single event.

I believe the accounts of Matt. 19, Mark 10, and Luke 18 refer to the same occasion, so it is appropriate to refer to it as the story of the "rich young leader."

We see in Matt. 8:14 that Peter owned a "house." He had been a disciple for a little while, and yet had not divested of all property (which would apparently have left his wife and MIL homeless). Later, in Matt. 17:25, they are again in a "house." Since the setting for both seems to be Capernaum, we would reasonably suspect it is again Peter's house.

By the time we get to the "rich young ruler" event, all three Synoptics record Peter saying that the had "left everything." We are left to speculate about the exact meaning of the words. Had Peter, in the intervening time / chapters, divested of his property (and if so, what did that mean for his family)? Or did he more narrowly mean that he had "left" his property while still retaining ownership? Impossible to be certain.

We may also note some interesting things about the dialogue between the young man and Jesus.

All three Synoptists record Jesus telling him to "keep the commandments."

Only Matt. records the young man asking, "Which ones?" That gives the impression he recognized the near futility of trying to flawlessly keep *all* the commandments.

All three include (in varying order) the proscriptions against murder, adultery, theft, and false testimony, and the prescription to honor parents. Only Mark includes "Do not defraud." Only Matthew includes "Love your neighbor as yourself," which he later (22:39) describes as the second-greatest commandment, "like" (or possibly even "the same as") the greatest, and which Paul three times (Rom. 13:8, 10; Gal. 5:14) describes as fulfilling the whole Law.

Some (not necessarily in this thread) have opined that Jesus intentionally omitted the prohibition against "coveting" because he knew that was the area where the young man was deficient. That's possible, though if the young man was sincere in his claim that he had followed even the "Love" commandment, it seems unlikely.

In any case, Jesus issued the famous instructions to divest of everything, give the proceeds to the poor, and follow Him; in return, he was promised "treasure in Heaven."

I have not noticed anyone in this thread pursue the account further, to the subsequent discussion with Peter and the other disciples. They (well, Peter) noted that they had already "left everything," and wanted to know what they could look forward to. All three Synoptists -- especially Matthew -- talk about their eternal reward when the Kingdom is realized. But also all three -- especially Mark -- note they will receive abundant recompense (and persecutions!) in this present life.

The "traditional" interpretive approach is to spiritualize and allegorize everything so that all the blessings are either pie-in-the-sky-in-the-sweet-bye-and-bye, or else present-day blessings of "inner fulfillment." I don't think that is correct, especially in light of things like Luke 6, where the recompense is of similar kind to what is given.

The "Prosperity Gospel" approach is to see it as a promise that when anyone donates for the furtherance of the Gospel, or gives to the poor as part of Gospel service, that person can expect a literal material return as much as 100 times greater.

ISTM that both of those are extremes that miss the main points. We are to be generous, we are to hold material things loosely, valuing God and people more than "things," and we should not fear to do those things, because God will care for us.

It was never the case that *everyone* who converts was expected to go into full-time itinerant ministry.

--------------------------

Also, I seem to recall someone bringing up Matt. 10:9 / Mark 6:8 / Luke 9:3, where the apostles were told to take no bread, bag, or money. Mark has Jesus allowing staffs, but Matt. and Luke do not. Luke records similar instructions to the Seventy in ch. 10. But Luke records explicitly different instructions in 22:36.

So the instructions are not the same in all circumstances.

[NorrinRadd]

H_A

You will find no issue from me with the above people you have listed. My husband and I were godless until we heard about the Lord Jesus Christ and the promise of eternal life through him, through the means of Christian television. The above people have done more for the cause of the gospel (the preaching of the good news of the attainment of eternal life through Christ in the kingdom of God) than most. We do not know how many millions they have given away and invested into various projects and ministries for the furtherance of the gospel at levels not possible for most individuals.

I think their teachings -- Copeland and Dollar in particular -- are unbalanced and possibly heterodox, but I would not be quick to call them or anyone "heretics." (In bygone days, in the first several years after I left a Word-Faith church, I would have been less charitable.)

And I think you're right. Even if they've done some bad teaching, they've probably gotten more people saved than the average "orthodox" Christian.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

I wish I could have seen the look on her face when she found out he was a pedophile.

You assume I did not know of his history?

He doesn't have any notable achievements. He wrote a couple books and was a professor. He was not the highly respected scholar you tried to prop him ip as. And you keep digging your grave on this hill because of your ego

He wrote more than a "couple of books" and despite your contentions , a Festschrift is not organised for mediocre academics. That you consider he was "not the highly respected scholar" just shows little you know;.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Sources?

From which specific websites did you acquire the comments from Meeks, White and Boyarin? You have only referenced the PBS documentary.

FWIU, the split might have started in earnest with the advent of the Roman-Jewish Wars (66-135A.D.),

What on earth are you alleging?

There were two major uprisings [66-70] CE and there was an uprising among some diaspora Jews between 115-117 CE [known as the Kitos War as it was finally crushed by the Roman general Lusius Quietus] and there was the second and bloodiest of all uprisings of 132-135 CE]. However, your bracketing of the entire period suggests the Jews were fighting Rome without cessation for sixty nine years!

Even after the Council of Jamnia (c. 90A.D.) is thought to have expelled Jewish Christians from synagogues there is evidence that they continued to worship in them for several centuries afterwards.

That such a council ever took place is now considered dubious among some academics.

1. this is the sort of honor that is typically awarded to scholars who are truly well-respected.

Not according Gondwanaland our self-appointed expert on these matters.

He contends that a Festschrift "is produced (largely) by one's colleagues in honor of the person. Literally anyone can do it this day and age. It's not some magical high honor anymore like it was a century ago/." and that the entire affair is "more an ego-stroking ". We must therefore acknowledge that a Festschrift is something quite mundane and pedestrian and note that "Literally anyone can do it ".

[rogue06]

You assume I did not know of his history?



He wrote more than a "couple of books" and despite your contentions , a Festschrift is not organised for mediocre academics. That you consider he was "not the highly respected scholar" just shows little you know;.

50 years ago and back a Festschrift might have been considered an honor, but with advances in publication making it so cheap and easy to have things published, it has in many cases been reduced to a glorified vanity press that someone can have arranged for virtually anyone who has had anything published.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

50 years ago and back a Festschrift might have been considered an honor, but with advances in publication making it so cheap and easy to have things published, it has in many cases been reduced to a glorified vanity press that someone can have arranged for virtually anyone who has had anything published.

Oh look another self-appointed expert.

[rogue06]

Oh look another self-appointed expert.

Yet more projection oh faux historian?

[rogue06]

From which specific websites did you acquire the comments from Meeks, White and Boyarin? You have only referenced the PBS documentary.

I'll take this bit of petulance as an admission that you have no source that supports your bizarre claim.

That is really no surprise given that your claim that Luke Acts was written after the Jews and Christians had complete split appears to have been pulled directly out of your nether regions. Most scholars have concluded that they were written between 70 to 90 A.D. (although a minority posit a slightly earlier or later date -- maybe as late as the first decade of the 2nd cent.). That would place it right before the Council of Jamnia and even the latest date puts it well before the Bar Kochba revolt in the early to mid 130s A.D.

IOW, by virtually every measure Luke transcribed Luke and Acts, the Christians and Jews had not split into separate camps as you proclaimed.

So I'll ask again, where did you get this idea from?

What on earth are you alleging?

There were two major uprisings [66-70] CE and there was an uprising among some diaspora Jews between 115-117 CE [known as the Kitos War as it was finally crushed by the Roman general Lusius Quietus] and there was the second and bloodiest of all uprisings of 132-135 CE]. However, your bracketing of the entire period suggests the Jews were fighting Rome without cessation for sixty nine years!

Your frantic flailing and attempt at nitpicking to distract attention from your goofy claim about Luke-Acts being penned after the Christian-Jewish split duly noted.

Not according Gondwanaland our self-appointed expert on these matters.

He contends that a Festschrift "is produced (largely) by one's colleagues in honor of the person. Literally anyone can do it this day and age. It's not some magical high honor anymore like it was a century ago/." and that the entire affair is "more an ego-stroking ". We must therefore acknowledge that a Festschrift is something quite mundane and pedestrian and note that "Literally anyone can do it ".

None of the honors I mentioned are anything like a Festschrift, which since the recent revolution in digital printing, is not what it used to be. You could even arrange to have one made from your posts here.

No, the scholars I mentioned were honored with prestigious positions^[1], ranging from being officially made professor emeritus, to being granted special chairs (basically honorary positions), to being made a department director. Pervo never received anything like this.





1 FWIU, being granted the Woolsey Professor seat is a singularly high honor at Yale (which itself is a highly prestigious university).

[Mountain Man]

You assume I did not know of his history?

Of course you didn't. Otherwise you wouldn't have trotted out your little chestnut suggesting that maybe it really wasn't pornography.

I would also remark that the term "pornography" is thrown about a lot in the USA for things that in Europe would not even raise an eyebrow.

This in reference to a guy who was caught with over 4000 sexually explicit images of children.

[Gondwanaland]

You assume I did not know of his history?

Assume? No, we know it - that's why in an early post after his conviction for possession of child images were revealed, you tried to suggest that perhaps his child pornography wasn't actually pornography.

He wrote more than a "couple of books" and despite your contentions , a Festschrift is not organised for mediocre academics. That you consider he was "not the highly respected scholar" just shows little you know;.

Yes, he wrote a couple books. And yes, a Fetschrift can be organized by anyone for any 'scholar' these days. Your boy didn't get any honors didn't get any seats or honored positions, nothing. He was a middling scholar and a purveyor of child porn. But you can't drop it because your ego won't allow you so you continue to dig yourself a hole.

[Gondwanaland]

Not according Gondwanaland our self-appointed expert on these matters.

Oh? Then you can provide a quote where I said any such thing about "Hermann P. and Sophia Taubman Professor of Talmudic Culture". Put up or shut up.