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"go, sell all that you have and give to the poor..."

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    No I did not. The withholding of the cash was deemed by Peter, according to the text, to be lying to god etc but what they had actually done was withhold cash.
    It is there in the opening text:

    But a man named Ananias, with the consent of his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property; 2 with his wife’s knowledge, he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet.


    Do we have any non Christian contemporary sources for any of this?
    HA, the issue was that the custom was to sell and then bring the entirety of the proceeds. The comment about holding back some shows that they were conspiring together to deceive people into thinking that was the entirety of the sum they received in the sale. And it was for that lie and deceipt that they suffered their consequence, not merely the fact they kept some for themselves.

    OtOH, Jesus taught much about those that harbor and love wealth, and the sin associated with not helping those in need. So, in many ways being wealthy and having lavish things presents a conflict of interest with our obligation to the poor and those in need. So while it is not required a Christian be poor, there is or should always be a tension between having things and a desire to help those that have not. A person who lavishes wealth upon themsekves with no thought of those in need and/or who abuses or steals from the poor in acquiring or retaining that wealth is in violation of the entire content and thrust of Christ's teachings on those topics.
    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

    Comment


    • #92
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      You make it sound like there is something wrong with being successful. Are we a tad jealous? Maybe a bit green with envy? Feeling a wee bit covetous perhaps?
      Where do you go for your ideas? If he's got $25 million left after he's given 90% away he can give away a great deal more if he really wants to practise what he is preaching.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

        No you are not representative of the various Christian creeds that exist both around the world and across the USA.

        From what I have learned from individuals who have told me, or from posts I have read, the majority here appear to be Baptists [or Southern Baptists].

        How many Catholics, Copts, or Orthodox Christians [and there are different groups within that section of Christianity] post regularly to these boards?

        I do not know. Do you?
        I believe (not with certainty) there is currently at least one -- but not much more than that -- of each of the faiths you cited. I don't think any are currently very active.
        Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

        Beige Federalist.

        Nationalist Christian.

        "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

        Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

        Proud member of the this space left blank community.

        Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

        Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

        Justice for Matthew Perna!

        Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          No I did not. The withholding of the cash was deemed by Peter, according to the text, to be lying to god etc but what they had actually done was withhold cash.
          It is there in the opening text:

          But a man named Ananias, with the consent of his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property; 2 with his wife’s knowledge, he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet.


          Do we have any non Christian contemporary sources for any of this?
          It was clear by

          Acts 5:3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

          That the problem was not holding back some money but actually lying about giving it all to the church. They were trying to be pious and pretend to give sacrificially when in fact they had only given a portion of the proceeds and kept the rest. Which was their prerogative, it was their land. But then they LIED about it.

          Here are some commentaries from bible scholars that confirm this:

          The second thing, of course, to note is the sin for which they gave their lives. It was not the sin of holding back, not the sin of failure of giving everything, because God did not require them to give everything. Their sin was that of hypocrisy--pretending to give everything to God when in reality they were holding something back from God. And so we get an interesting view of God's opinion of the hypocrite, which would indeed cause fear and trembling to come upon all the church.
          Chuck Smith - https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm....cfm?a=1023004

          c. While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Peter freely acknowledged that the land and its value belonged to Ananias alone; he was completely free to do with it what he wanted. His crime was not in withholding the money, but in deceptively implying that he gave it all.
          David Guzik - https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm....cfm?a=1023004

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            Which you did not give. Sparko did
            Not only are you a world class hypocrite you are exceptionally dishonest.


            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

            I guess Hypocrite_Alexandria hadn't reached the level of buffoonery she sought to express:





            And that wasn't even the source I used but thought it made for a nice screen capture what with the publisher's logo and all that.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
              That was the response to the fact that they had withheld some cash.

              Corroboration. Or do you accept the Gingerbread House really did exist because the Brothers Grimm wrote about it in a book?
              I think from now on whenever you provide a piece of information or opinion I will demand that you provide sources that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Seems like a pretty useful strategy, eh?

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                It was clear by

                Acts 5:3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”
                Well that is Peter's opinion.

                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                That the problem was not holding back some money but actually lying about giving it all to the church. They were trying to be pious and pretend to give sacrificially when in fact they had only given a portion of the proceeds and kept the rest. Which was their prerogative, it was their land. But then they LIED about it.
                They held back the dosh. That was their fault, they were less than honest.

                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                Here are some commentaries from bible scholars that confirm this:

                The second thing, of course, to note is the sin for which they gave their lives. It was not the sin of holding back, not the sin of failure of giving everything, because God did not require them to give everything. Their sin was that of hypocrisy--pretending to give everything to God when in reality they were holding something back from God. And so we get an interesting view of God's opinion of the hypocrite, which would indeed cause fear and trembling to come upon all the church.
                Chuck Smith - https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm....cfm?a=1023004

                c. While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Peter freely acknowledged that the land and its value belonged to Ananias alone; he was completely free to do with it what he wanted. His crime was not in withholding the money, but in deceptively implying that he gave it all.
                David Guzik - https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm....cfm?a=1023004

                David Guzik appears to be a pastor. To be a pastor it is not necessary to be an academic.

                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                  No you are not representative of the various Christian creeds that exist both around the world and across the USA.

                  From what I have learned from individuals who have told me, or from posts I have read, the majority here appear to be Baptists [or Southern Baptists].

                  How many Catholics, Copts, or Orthodox Christians [and there are different groups within that section of Christianity] post regularly to these boards?

                  I do not know. Do you?
                  Just among the staff we have folks who are Orthodox Christian, Roman Catholic, Protestant (representing several denominations) and Baptist (many if not most Baptists don't consider themselves Protestant).

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                    I think from now on whenever you provide a piece of information or opinion I will demand that you provide sources that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Seems like a pretty useful strategy, eh?
                    Don't forget pretending it wasn't provided or just keep asking for more and more details about it.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      Well that is Peter's opinion.
                      At the very least, that beats a hundred of your ilk.

                      It is actually rather humorous how whenever one of your claims about what the Bible states is shown to be wrong by a direct quote from it, you end up falling back to crap like "Well that is Peter's opinion."

                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      They held back the dosh. That was their fault, they were less than honest.
                      The point being that wasn't what the problem was. As others keep pointing out, they weren't forbidden from keeping whatever portion of the money raised they desired. The dishonesty was the lying about how much it was, THAT is where they were "less than honest."

                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      David Guzik appears to be a pastor. To be a pastor it is not necessary to be an academic.
                      Who happens to have written a very popular verse-by-verse commentary. AFAICT, it hasn't been accused of mistranslating or misstatements or other errors, which indicates a certain level of scholarship.

                      But this is what you do. When provided evidence that conflicts with your worldview you start trying to dismiss it on whatever grounds you can dream up -- and you've dreamed up some doozies in the past

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        Such is the advice Jesus offers the rich man who wants to inherit eternal life.

                        How can that injunction can be justified by the tax free millionaire lifestyles enjoyed by several religious leaders/pastors in the USA?

                        https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other...20/ar-BB10WK2P


                        Kenneth Copeland - $300 million

                        His ministry is majorly done through television, books, DVDs and CDs. Copeland has been clouded with controversy related to his wealth and the reliance on church funds to support his lifestyle. The preacher has three private jets which he uses for trips to resorts and personal vacations.

                        Pat Robertson - $100 million

                        He is the founder and CEO of the Christian Coalition, which is a Christian Right organization that raises money and public support for conservative political candidates.

                        Creflo Dollar - $27 million

                        The pastor does not shy from showcasing his wealth as he is the proud owner of two Rolls-Royces, a million-dollar house, a private jet and several other assets in the US.

                        Rick Warren - $25 million

                        Rick Warren is the founder of the Saddleback Church located in Lake Forest, California. It is one of the largest churches in America that averages a weekly attendance of 20,000 people. It has resulted in the pastor making a lot of money through church donations. Also, he is an author who is enthusiastic about religion, uplifting the poor and the promotion of education.



                        And why do so many American Christians give their money to these individuals and others like them?
                        H_A

                        You will find no issue from me with the above people you have listed. My husband and I were godless until we heard about the Lord Jesus Christ and the promise of eternal life through him, through the means of Christian television. The above people have done more for the cause of the gospel (the preaching of the good news of the attainment of eternal life through Christ in the kingdom of God) than most. We do not know how many millions they have given away and invested into various projects and ministries for the furtherance of the gospel at levels not possible for most individuals.

                        As for the scripture about the rich young ruler, what do you think about the following interpretation from Andrew Wommack?

                        There was an instance in Scripture where a rich young man came running and threw himself down at Jesus’ feet. He certainly respected Jesus and recognized Him as being a religious leader. But despite his outward pretense, Jesus could tell he wasn’t ready to make a real commitment to Him. The young man said,

                        “Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God” (Mark 10:17-18).

                        Jesus was saying that the only one who is truly good is God. So this person either needed to accept Jesus as God or quit calling Him good. What was the young man’s response? In verse 20 he said,

                        “Master…”

                        The rich young ruler dropped the word “good” when addressing Jesus. He was not willing to make Jesus God. He was willing to identify with Jesus and proclaim His goodness, but he was not willing to make Him God.

                        This young man went on to proclaim his own goodness as the basis of his relationship with the Lord. He said he had kept all the commandments from the time of his youth. The truth is that no one has kept all the Law and lived a sinless life.

                        We have all sinned and come short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). This man was deceived because he compared himself with others (2 Cor. 10:12). Compared to others, he may have been holy, but he was a sinner in need of a Savior, and he didn’t know it.

                        The story continues,

                        “Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me” (Mark 10:21).

                        Notice that this verse says Jesus loved this young man. Jesus didn’t tell this man to sell all he had and give to the poor because He didn’t want him to be a disciple. He loved him. And because Jesus loved him, He had to break the deception that he could earn his salvation.

                        He needed a Savior but didn’t know it. He had lived such a good life that he thought he would be accepted by God for all his goodness. He said he had kept all the commandments of God, but he hadn’t. He had deceived himself into believing it, but Jesus knew better.

                        Jesus told this young man to sell whatever he had and give it to the poor. He had never told this to anyone else who wanted to follow Him, so why did he do this? He did it because He knew what his god was.

                        The very first commandment says,

                        “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:3).

                        Jesus was showing this young man that he had broken the very first commandment. He trusted his money and what it could do for him more than he trusted God. Jesus loved him and wanted to bring him to salvation, but He would not lower the bar, and the young man went away sorrowful (Mark 10:22). There is no other way to the Father but through Jesus.




                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          That was the response to the fact that they had withheld some cash.

                          Corroboration. Or do you accept the Gingerbread House really did exist because the Brothers Grimm wrote about it in a book?
                          Your remarks remain unsubstantiated. Others have said what I was going to say about the context and the *actual" text of what Peter said. You rejected me and them with nonresponsive replies.

                          Talk all you want. The text is clear. Lying in the presence of God is why they died.
                          Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            [SIZE=12px][FONT=Verdana]
                            “But a man named Ananias, with the consent of his wife Sapphira, sold a piece of property; 2 with his wife’s knowledge, he kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet.” [Acts 5.1-2]

                            That is nothing to do with lying. They held back some of the cash.
                            CONTEXT MATTERS as Mountain man showed ACT 5:3-9 showed what it was about they lied and said they gave all. sigh i had to school a fellow athiest of yours earlier on this it seems you dont' want to read what is clearly in the text about what it was about.
                            [Act 5:1-9 NKJV] 1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession. 2 And he kept back [part] of the proceeds, his wife also being aware [of it], and brought a certain part and laid [it] at the apostles' feet. 3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart tolie to the Holy Spirit and keep back [part] of the price of the land for yourself? 4 "While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." 5 Then Ananias, hearing these words, fell down and breathed his last. So great fear came upon all those who heard these things. 6 And the young men arose and wrapped him up, carried [him] out, and buried [him]. 7 Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter answered her, "Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?" She said, "Yes, for so much." 9 Then Peter said to her, "How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband [are] at the door, and they will carry you out."

                            it was not that they did not give all they did not have to as Peter said it was theirs to do what they wanted. They lied and said they were giving all

                            btw you need to look at Acts 4:33:37 for the whole context here and why it was the lie not the keeping back of money
                            [Act 4:32-37 NKJV] 32 Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common. 33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all. 34 Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, 35 and laid [them] at the apostles' feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need. 36 And Joses, who was also named Barnabas by the apostles (which is translated Son of Encouragement), a Levite of the country of Cyprus, 37 having land, sold [it], and brought the money and laid [it] at the apostles' feet.

                            Believers of The Way were voluntarily giving from what they had and in some cased all the proceeds of what they sold Ananias and Sapphire wanted to appear to be holier the others without giving thier all but lying about it.The Apostles would have been fine with whatever the donated as I showed with the bolded speech by Peter. Please stop with this cherry picking and taking things out of context to try and prove what you want.

                            Comment


                            • Glad you fixed that. Post #103 confused me at first.
                              When I Survey....

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                                Well that is Peter's opinion.
                                Isn't that what we are discussing here? After all Peter is the one who condemned them for it.


                                They held back the dosh. That was their fault, they were less than honest.
                                less than honest? They lied. TO GOD. In order to gain prestige among men. How is that hard to understand?





                                David Guzik appears to be a pastor. To be a pastor it is not necessary to be an academic.
                                So? Are you picking and choosing sources again? You were the one claiming that we here on tweb don't represent all of Christianity. I was just pointing out a few other source that agree with us. You are free to look up your own commentaries to see what the consensus is among Christians on this topic. I am sure you would be suspicious of any sources I provide.



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