Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

"go, sell all that you have and give to the poor..."

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post


    And as you acknowledged neither of us actually know what percentage of Christians posters here belong to which specific denominations.

    Hence my initial comment that the Christian members of these boards are not representative of Christianity within the USA and the wider world. You are a tiny fraction.
    Why then, knowing that, did you ask your question here in the first place? You got quite a number of answers from the believers here, those who didn't respond either don't care or have no opinion. What more do you want of us?

    Go out onto the streets of the US and ask random people what they think, twit.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      At the very least, that beats a hundred of your ilk.

      It is actually rather humorous how whenever one of your claims about what the Bible states is shown to be wrong by a direct quote from it, you end up falling back to crap like "Well that is Peter's opinion."
      I should have been more precise. That is the author of Acts' opinion in his narrative.

      As Richard Pervo notes:

      Luke, as the author of both the Third Gospel (Luke) and Acts is conveniently designated, told his story so well that all rival accounts vanished with but the faintest of traces. Luke T. Johnson, no radical skeptic, puts it this way: "So successful was Luke that his narrative has become the etiological or foundational myth of gentile Christianity." The same scholar also notes that "It witnesses to Luke's literary skill that for two millennia people thought he told the story just the way it happened, indeed, had to have happened. [See The Mystery of Acts: Unraveling Its Story. Polebridge Press, 2008. Chapter One.]


      Pervo continues:

      No profound insight into the riches of psychology or the depths of ethical ambiguity is required to tell the good characters in Acts from the bad. The narrator comes equipped with a large supply of those black and white hats that are so useful for preventing confusion. This is not to deny that a bit of suspense is artfully employed, or even that there are some gray berets scattered throughout the plot, or that one color may be exchanged for the other. Saul makes his debut in a dark little cap that is traded in for a menacing sombrero of the inkiest hue within a few verses, but that item of gruesome headgear is in turn slated for early retirement. Likewise, Simon of Samaria first appears as the most blasphemous of creatures whose pretensions are overcome by the superior power of Philip. In the end, however, it turns out that Simon wanted no more than a taste of power, in return for which he was prepared to offer a reasonable consideration. Still, he is left dangling and unforgiven (8:9-24). Did Luke know more about Simon than he lets on? Historians wonder. Some officials, among whom are the Roman governors Felix and Festus, give an initial impression of impartial integrity, but turn out to be greedy and weak (Acts 24-26 ). These exceptions liven a story in which the bad guys are very bad and the good guys very, very good. "Black" and "white" tip the hand. The characterization in Acts is, like much of the plot, melodramatic. [See Chapter Four].



      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

      The point being that wasn't what the problem was. As others keep pointing out, they weren't forbidden from keeping whatever portion of the money raised they desired. The dishonesty was the lying about how much it was, THAT is where they were "less than honest."
      And as the text clearly shows they withheld part of the money. That was the reason they were criticised [and killed]. They had been duplicitous about how much money they had received.


      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Who happens to have written a very popular verse-by-verse commentary.
      That is not the issue. He was described as a "scholar". I can find no information on his academic qualifications.

      The opening verses of Acts 5 make it quite clear what transgression these two individuals have committed.
      Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 06-14-2021, 04:52 PM.
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

        Let us forget the various translations.

        Here is the literal translation of the Greek from Acts 5.1-3

        And a certain man Ananias by name with Sapphira the wife of him sold a property and appropriated from the price aware of [it] also the [his] wife [=his wife also being aware of it] and bringing a a certain part at the feet of the apostles placed [it]

        [See: The Interlinear NRSV and NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek and English, Interlinear Translation by Alfred Marshall. Zondervan, 1993]
        Do you read Greek? Because until you read Greek, I don't care what you are throwing in here.

        That's one thing that Rick Warren does that I cannot abide. At least in his Purpose Driven LIfe book, he uses upwards of at least 20 versions of scripture in order to fit what he wanted to say. It would have been more credible if he had used one or maybe 2 versions instead of cherry picking. And I suspect that he does the same thing with his other books and his sermons.

        The version I posted here is from the NASB, one of the most accurate translations to ever be. There is a new one coming out this fall, which is marginally better, called the Legacy Standard Bible.

        However, I suspect that you don't care one whit for whatever version people use. You are insistent upon your own ignorant "interpretations" of whatever scripture you are trying to cherry pick to lob at us.


        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          And as you acknowledged neither of us actually know...
          As I said, I never claimed to know. I merely asked on what basis you declared this forum not to be representative of Christianity in general, and after spinning on your head like a top for several posts, you finally admitted that you don't know. I'm satisfied with that concession, as grudging as it appears to be.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

            She will explain to God how he got it all wrong.
            I have a feeling that we're all going to be terrified into speechlessness when that day comes.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              Let us forget the various translations.
              No one said anything about translations. we are taking about the context of the verse you cherry picked out of said context

              Here is the literal translation of the Greek from Acts 5.1-3

              And a certain man Ananias by name with Sapphira the wife of him sold a property and appropriated from the price aware of [it] also the [his] wife [=his wife also being aware of it] and bringing a a certain part at the feet of the apostles placed [it]

              [See: The Interlinear NRSV and NIV Parallel New Testament in Greek and English, Interlinear Translation by Alfred Marshall. Zondervan, 1993]
              How do these three verses prove what you are saying that they were supposed to give all and died because they didn't? All we have here are a man and wife selling some property and giving part of the proceeds to the apostles. nothing about them being required to give all I do not see any where in these 3 verses where anyone died and they were told to give all.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                I should have been more precise. That is the author of Acts' opinion in his narrative.

                As Richard Pervo notes:

                Luke, as the author of both the Third Gospel (Luke) and Acts is conveniently designated, told his story so well that all rival accounts vanished with but the faintest of traces. Luke T. Johnson, no radical skeptic, puts it this way: "So successful was Luke that his narrative has become the etiological or foundational myth of gentile Christianity." The same scholar also notes that "It witnesses to Luke's literary skill that for two millennia people thought he told the story just the way it happened, indeed, had to have happened. [See The Mystery of Acts: Unraveling Its Story. Polebridge Press, 2008. Chapter One.]


                Pervo continues:

                No profound insight into the riches of psychology or the depths of ethical ambiguity is required to tell the good characters in Acts from the bad. The narrator comes equipped with a large supply of those black and white hats that are so useful for preventing confusion. This is not to deny that a bit of suspense is artfully employed, or even that there are some gray berets scattered throughout the plot, or that one color may be exchanged for the other. Saul makes his debut in a dark little cap that is traded in for a menacing sombrero of the inkiest hue within a few verses, but that item of gruesome headgear is in turn slated for early retirement. Likewise, Simon of Samaria first appears as the most blasphemous of creatures whose pretensions are overcome by the superior power of Philip. In the end, however, it turns out that Simon wanted no more than a taste of power, in return for which he was prepared to offer a reasonable consideration. Still, he is left dangling and unforgiven (8:9-24). Did Luke know more about Simon than he lets on? Historians wonder. Some officials, among whom are the Roman governors Felix and Festus, give an initial impression of impartial integrity, but turn out to be greedy and weak (Acts 24-26 ). These exceptions liven a story in which the bad guys are very bad and the good guys very, very good. "Black" and "white" tip the hand. The characterization in Acts is, like much of the plot, melodramatic. [See Chapter Four].



                And as the text clearly shows they withheld part of the money. That was the reason they were criticised [and killed]. They had been duplicitous about how much money they had received.


                That is not the issue. He was described as a "scholar". I can find no information on his academic qualifications.

                The opening verses of Acts 5 make it quite clear what transgression these two individuals have committed.
                I had never heard of Richard Pervo. This is what Wikipedia has to say about him:

                Richard Ivan Pervo (May 11, 1942 – May 19, 2017) was an American biblical scholar, former Episcopal priest, and Fellow of the Westar Institute. He was best known for his works on the New Testament book of Acts of the Apostles. [...] In February 2001, Pervo was arrested after investigators found thousands of images of child pornography on his work computer at the University of Minnesota.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Pervo

                Pervo. What an apropos last name. I suppose it's appropriate in a way that his analysis of the writings of Luke is rather childish in its tone and shows a poor understanding of the material and the culture in which it was written.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                  I had never heard of Richard Pervo. This is what Wikipedia has to say about him:

                  Richard Ivan Pervo (May 11, 1942 – May 19, 2017) was an American biblical scholar, former Episcopal priest, and Fellow of the Westar Institute. He was best known for his works on the New Testament book of Acts of the Apostles. [...] In February 2001, Pervo was arrested after investigators found thousands of images of child pornography on his work computer at the University of Minnesota.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Pervo

                  Pervo. What an apropos last name. I suppose it's appropriate in a way that his analysis of the writings of Luke is rather childish in its tone and shows a poor understanding of the material and the culture in which it was written.
                  Oh wow. And Westar, at first glance, is a liberal organization that promotes scholarly study of the Bible. Liberal being the key word.
                  Last edited by DesertBerean; 06-14-2021, 07:20 PM.
                  Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                    She will explain to God how he got it all wrong.
                    And how everything He says is merely His opinion

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post

                      Oh wow. And Westar, at first glance, is a liberal organization that promotes scholarly study of the Bible. Liberal being the key word.
                      it is the home of the Jesus Seminar

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by RumTumTugger View Post

                        it is the home of the Jesus Seminar
                        AAAAhhhhhhhhh......I see!
                        Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by RumTumTugger View Post

                          it is the home of the Jesus Seminar
                          Hypatia_Alexandria sure knows how to pick 'em!

                          Maybe next time she'll take better care to find a reputable source and not simply the first one that tells her what she wants to hear.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by mossrose View Post

                            Why then, knowing that, did you ask your question here in the first place? You got quite a number of answers from the believers here, those who didn't respond either don't care or have no opinion. What more do you want of us?

                            Go out onto the streets of the US and ask random people what they think, twit.
                            I accept that the views I have received from Christians here are highly critical of these "millionaire pastors" but I was hoping some of you could think a little more broadly about that issue. The hypocrisy of these individuals in a wider context within Christianity and what makes them so attractive to vast swathes of Christians?

                            The pun is intentional but do you all have to be so parochial?
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by RumTumTugger View Post

                              No one said anything about translations.
                              Pardon? What do you think you are reading? Every translation by its very nature is an interpretation especially from a language as highly inflected as Greek.

                              Originally posted by RumTumTugger View Post
                              we are taking about the context of the verse you cherry picked out of said context
                              And the context is clear. They held back some of the money that their "lie" to God

                              Originally posted by RumTumTugger View Post


                              How do these three verses prove what you are saying that they were supposed to give all and died because they didn't? All we have here are a man and wife selling some property and giving part of the proceeds to the apostles. nothing about them being required to give all I do not see any where in these 3 verses where anyone died and they were told to give all.
                              That is their crime/misdemeanour. Peter then berates Ananias

                              Ananias,” Peter asked, “why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? 4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, were not the proceeds at your disposal? How is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You did not lie to us[a] but to God!

                              Ananias then drops down dead,

                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post

                                Which you are very strangely fixated upon. What is the reason for your interest?
                                rogue06 introduced verses from Acts in his post #25.

                                I suggest you put that question to him.
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by Reepicheep, Yesterday, 07:21 PM
                                9 responses
                                52 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Gondwanaland  
                                Started by Reepicheep, Yesterday, 01:13 PM
                                10 responses
                                86 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post tabibito  
                                Started by MaxVel, Yesterday, 09:03 AM
                                29 responses
                                188 views
                                2 likes
                                Last Post MaxVel
                                by MaxVel
                                 
                                Started by Cow Poke, Yesterday, 06:59 AM
                                30 responses
                                141 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Mountain Man  
                                Started by shunyadragon, 07-22-2021, 05:50 PM
                                35 responses
                                199 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post rogue06
                                by rogue06
                                 
                                Working...
                                X