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"go, sell all that you have and give to the poor..."

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  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    I accept that the views I have received from Christians here are highly critical of these "millionaire pastors" but I was hoping some of you could think a little more broadly about that issue. The hypocrisy of these individuals in a wider context within Christianity and what makes them so attractive to vast swathes of Christians?

    The pun is intentional but do you all have to be so parochial?
    How are they hypocrites? You said there's no correct interpretation, so how can they be going against the teachings?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

      I had never heard of Richard Pervo. This is what Wikipedia has to say about him:

      [box]Richard Ivan Pervo (May 11, 1942 – May 19, 2017) was an American biblical scholar, former Episcopal priest, and Fellow of the Westar Institute. He was best known for his works on the New Testament book of Acts of the Apostles. [...] In February 2001, Pervo was arrested after investigators found thousands of images of child pornography on his work computer at the University of Minnesota.
      His horrendous personal habits notwithstanding it does not detract from his scholarship. Do you dismiss Einstein's work because he was a horrible husband and father?

      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      Pervo. What an apropos last name
      In English. There is a small town in Upper Austria that has changed its name because the original meant something entirely different in English.

      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      I suppose it's appropriate in a way that his analysis of the writings of Luke is rather childish in its tone and shows a poor understanding of the material and the culture in which it was written.
      From someone who has just acknowledged he has "never heard of Richard Pervo" you seem remarkably eager to criticise his works premised on the evidence of a few sentences from one book.

      Does that not strike you as a somewhat prejudiced and even bigoted response?

      .
      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

        How are they hypocrites? You said there's no correct interpretation, so how can they be going against the teachings?
        My OP referred to the words in Mark 10 17-22

        I think those verses are remarkably clear if one really wants to follow a Jewish ascetic holy man.

        Some Christians do live lives of poverty and rely on the "kindness of strangers".
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

          My OP referred to the words in Mark 10 17-22

          I think those verses are remarkably clear if one really wants to follow a Jewish ascetic holy man.

          Some Christians do live lives of poverty and rely on the "kindness of strangers".
          Oh, so you,a non-christian, DO believe that there is a correct interpretation, and are OK with telling actual christians that they aren't following their religion correctly.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

            Oh, so you,a non-christian, DO believe that there is a correct interpretation, and are OK with telling actual christians that they aren't following their religion correctly.
            I think what I have postulated is clear from the text [and indeed other words spoken by Jesus in the gospels] which, given what we know of the socio-religious and political background to the period are perfectly in keeping with the teachings of an ascetic Jew who believed the End Times were approaching and the Kingdom of God was at hand and who was urging his fellows Jews to repent.

            However, if you want to make a case for Christian church leaders accruing vast wealth to themselves and you can find the relevant biblical passages that could be interpreted to justify their position, feel free to start a thread on the topic.
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              I think what I have postulated is clear from the text [and indeed other words spoken by Jesus in the gospels] which, given what we know of the socio-religious and political background to the period are perfectly in keeping with the teachings of an ascetic Jew who believed the End Times were approaching and the Kingdom of God was at hand and who was urging his fellows Jews to repent.

              However, if you want to make a case for Christian church leaders accruing vast wealth to themselves and you can find the relevant biblical passages that could be interpreted to justify their position, feel free to start a thread on the topic.
              So, it's clear, but not correct?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                So, it's clear, but not correct?
                Pardon?'
                "It ain't necessarily so
                The things that you're liable
                To read in the Bible
                It ain't necessarily so
                ."

                Sportin' Life
                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                  rogue06 introduced verses from Acts in his post #25.

                  I suggest you put that question to him.
                  I believe that I mentioned Acts in a single post. DB mentioned your fixation on it.

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    I believe that I mentioned Acts in a single post. DB mentioned your fixation on it.
                    I made a comment on Acts and various people came back to me with their observations.
                    "It ain't necessarily so
                    The things that you're liable
                    To read in the Bible
                    It ain't necessarily so
                    ."

                    Sportin' Life
                    Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      His horrendous personal habits notwithstanding it does not detract from his scholarship. Do you dismiss Einstein's work because he was a horrible husband and father?

                      In English. There is a small town in Upper Austria that has changed its name because the original meant something entirely different in English.

                      From someone who has just acknowledged he has "never heard of Richard Pervo" you seem remarkably eager to criticise his works premised on the evidence of a few sentences from one book.

                      Does that not strike you as a somewhat prejudiced and even bigoted response?
                      I've seen nothing that would lead me to believe Richard Pervert is the Einstein of Biblical scholarship. Perhaps you have evidence that would lead a reasonable person to that conclusion?

                      At any rate, I assume you quoted what you did because you believed it was credible and presented good support for your point of view, but in this instance, it appears to be a case of the blind leading the blind.

                      First of all, Pervert suggests that Luke's writings survived simply because the gospel writer told a better -- as in a more accessible and entertaining -- story than his competitors when, in fact, they were widely accepted by other eye witnesses still alive at the time as being the most accurate. Pervert then goes on to quote from someone who he describes as "no radical skeptic" who nevertheless suggests that Luke's writings present a "myth" rather than history, which, I hate to break to you, sweetheart, is a pretty radically skeptical position. Any scholar and historian worth the diploma on his wall would know that Luke's intent was to present an accurate history, and that his writings were accepted as such by his contemporaries.

                      Second, Pervert suggests that Luke's writings are suspect because the historian doesn't go into enough detail about character and motivation, citing Simon the Sorcerer as an example about which Pervert writes, "Did Luke know more about Simon than he lets on?" Well, duh, of course he did, and so did his audience. Apparently Richard Pervert, who you suggest is the Einstein of Biblical scholarship, knows nothing about the habits of a high context society. In fact, Luke's writings have the mark of authenticity precisely because he doesn't deal in the inner thoughts and motivations of his subjects, presenting his narrative in the manner of an eye witness who can tell you what happened, but not necessarily why.

                      Personally, I find it amusing that you would try to defend the writings of a third-rate scholar and a pedophile rather than simply admit that you were wrong about the reason Ananias and Sapphira were killed.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                        I accept that the views I have received from Christians here are highly critical of these "millionaire pastors" but I was hoping some of you could think a little more broadly about that issue. The hypocrisy of these individuals in a wider context within Christianity and what makes them so attractive to vast swathes of Christians?

                        The pun is intentional but do you all have to be so parochial?
                        That false prophets and teachers would be a problem is something we have been warned about pretty much since the inception of Christianity.

                        As to what makes them so attractive? People will always be attracted to those who tell them things they want to hear. Look at the prosperity gospel for instance. Who doesn't want to hear that if you just have faith you'll be rich? No real effort needed, just believe and everything will start going your way. Of course that flies directly in the face of what Jesus warned.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                          I made a comment on Acts and various people came back to me with their observations.
                          Then that should have been your answer and not a childish "rogue made me do it."

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Moreover, that advice was given to a very specific person, a tax collector -- a profession where, back then, much of your wealth could be termed ill-begotten. It wasn't general advice. Nicodemus was obviously fairly well-off, and there is no record of him having been told to sell all that you have and give to the poor. In fact, I would think that if he had, and obeyed, then he wouldn't likely have had tomb space to offer.

                            You don't have to impoverish yourself to follow Jesus.

                            Not sure if anyone mentioned this but it was Joseph of Arithmea that had the tomb...
                            Last edited by DesertBerean; 06-15-2021, 07:15 AM.
                            Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              From someone who has just acknowledged he has "never heard of Richard Pervo" you seem remarkably eager to criticise his works premised on the evidence of a few sentences from one book.

                              Does that not strike you as a somewhat prejudiced and even bigoted response?.
                              At least he basis his criticism on the man's work, unlike you who will often come up with some real nonsensical reasons to dismiss someone when you aren't just declaring "well that's their opinion."

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                                Pardon?'
                                You have stated that there is no correct interpretation of the text. You also say that the meaning is clear.

                                So, does that mean that the interpretation is clear, but not correct?

                                Comment

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