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Is ‘financial abortion’ an idea whose time has come?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Not necessarily. He may have not wanted to engage initially but surely biology kicked in. He must have been able to penetrate and release at least some sperm if only a dribble.



    Then why did you introduce the topic of male rape?
    So if a woman has an orgasm while being raped then it becomes consensual????

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post

      So if a woman has an orgasm while being raped then it becomes consensual????
      Take the topic to another thread, please.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

        I said something very similar another thread: either give the man equal say in whether or not the unborn child is killed, or remove from him any obligation to care for the child if the woman decides to give birth.
        Sperm donors should be held accountable for the results of their intercourse. Why should the woman have to bear all of the cost?
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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        • #19
          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
          Sperm donors should be held accountable for the results of their intercourse. Why should the woman have to bear all of the cost?
          This is simply an argument based on the premises of pro-abortion liberals. If it is 100% the woman's decision whether the baby lives or dies then it should be 100% her obligation to care for the child if she decides he is to live.

          Personally, I believe that killing the child should never be an option, and the obligation for raising him should fall on both parents equally.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

            This is simply an argument based on the premises of pro-abortion liberals. If it is 100% the woman's decision whether the baby lives or dies then it should be 100% her obligation to care for the child if she decides he is to live.

            Personally, I believe that killing the child should never be an option, and the obligation for raising him should fall on both parents equally.
            But if they actually implemented something like that it would just encourage women to have the abortion so they would not be burdened with the cost of raising a child without child support from the father.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post

              But if they actually implemented something like that it would just encourage women to have the abortion so they would not be burdened with the cost of raising a child without child support from the father.
              My only point here is to simply expose the flaws and hypocrisy in the pro-abortion camp. My firm belief is that abortion should never be an option, the only exception being if and only if the mother's life is in physical danger because of the pregnancy.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                In general, it comes down to: Her Body, Her Choice, Her Responsibility.

                It means men will no longer be forced into indentured servitude for 18 years based on the decision of another that he has no say in. He'll have the same right to not be forced into a responsibility he does not want as a woman.
                If the woman has no say and no choice, but is forced to go through an unwanted pregnancy, then the man should be equally responsible.

                If the woman has the choice to abort and decides against it, then we can have a discussion about the man's responsibility.

                Conservatives are always telling women that if they don't want to have babies they should not have sex. How about telling men the same thing.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by kccd View Post

                  If the woman has no say and no choice, but is forced to go through an unwanted pregnancy, then the man should be equally responsible.

                  If the woman has the choice to abort and decides against it, then we can have a discussion about the man's responsibility.

                  Conservatives are always telling women that if they don't want to have babies they should not have sex. How about telling men the same thing.
                  They do . . .

                  We know J6 wasn’t peaceful because they didn’t set the building on fire.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by kccd View Post

                    If the woman has no say and no choice, but is forced to go through an unwanted pregnancy, then the man should be equally responsible.

                    If the woman has the choice to abort and decides against it, then we can have a discussion about the man's responsibility.
                    Last I checked, abortion was legal.

                    Lets go ahead and start that discussion about the man's responsibility, shall we?



                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
                      My thoughts on this:
                      1. The mother has absolutely no right to input on this decsion.
                      2. The mother's state, financial stability, health, marital status, or relgion, have no input on this decision.
                      3. There should be a rough time-line parity between man and woman on making the decision, however, since it is easier for a man to be uninformed of pregnancy than a woman, I would argue that his timeline starts upon official notification of pregnancy.

                      Source: https://www.bioedge.org/bioethics/is-financial-abortion-an-idea-whose-time-has-come/12123

                      Is ‘financial abortion’ an idea whose time has come?

                      by Michael Cook


                      If women have a right to get rid of a baby, why shouldn’t men? This radical idea has been kicking around for about 20 years, but seems to becoming more popular. In 1998 Brown University sociologist Frances K. Goldscheider floated the idea of a “financial abortion” in order to achieve true gender equality.

                      Earlier this year the youth wing of the Liberal Party in Sweden adopted the idea. Up until 18 weeks of pregnancy, it argued, men should have the right to relinquish all rights and responsibilities for their partner’s child. Unsurprisingly, the proposal went to the same place as the Young Liberals' proposals for legalizing necrophilia and consensual incest -- nowhere at all -- as it sounded absurdly sexist and anti-feminist.

                      But dyed-in-the-wool Australian feminist, comedian and author Catherine Deveney has revived the idea. The litmus test is simple:

                      Is it fair for people to be forced to become parents against their wishes? If it's not fair for a woman to be forced to bear a child or have an abortion, it follows it's not fair for a man to be forced to become a parent.


                      The idea becomes slightly more plausible in the light of the slogan “every child a wanted child”. What if a man does not want a child? How can you force him to love his wee sprog?

                      “I believe every baby should be wanted, and every parent should be willing,” writes Deveney. “When we consent to having sex, we do not automatically consent to becoming a parent. If, when a cis male and cis female have vaginal sex, their contraception fails, it doesn't mean both people have to become parents. The options are abortion, adoption, parenting together or sole parenting.”

                      The most obvious objection is that a man should be financially responsible for the child. But, says Deveney, “this kind of thinking is founded in oppressive heteronormative values and belongs in the 1950s.”

                      © Copyright Original Source


                      I am thinking about personal responsibility. Consequences for actions. If a man doesn't want to have a child he should take precautions. If the precautions fail then he must accept that he needs to take responsibility for his failed precautions?

                      The woman may be accepting and even happy with the pregnancy and to give birth to the child and then the man whose precautions failed or who never took any measures to ensure against pregnancy wants the woman to have an abortion or sign a contract to absolve him from having any responsibility. Surely not?

                      If the women wants an abortion and the man doesn't, this presents another problem! Should the man have the right to deny the abortion?





                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
                        My thoughts on this:
                        1. The mother has absolutely no right to input on this decsion.
                        2. The mother's state, financial stability, health, marital status, or relgion, have no input on this decision.
                        3. There should be a rough time-line parity between man and woman on making the decision, however, since it is easier for a man to be uninformed of pregnancy than a woman, I would argue that his timeline starts upon official notification of pregnancy.

                        Source: https://www.bioedge.org/bioethics/is-financial-abortion-an-idea-whose-time-has-come/12123

                        Is ‘financial abortion’ an idea whose time has come?

                        by Michael Cook


                        If women have a right to get rid of a baby, why shouldn’t men? This radical idea has been kicking around for about 20 years, but seems to becoming more popular. In 1998 Brown University sociologist Frances K. Goldscheider floated the idea of a “financial abortion” in order to achieve true gender equality.

                        Earlier this year the youth wing of the Liberal Party in Sweden adopted the idea. Up until 18 weeks of pregnancy, it argued, men should have the right to relinquish all rights and responsibilities for their partner’s child. Unsurprisingly, the proposal went to the same place as the Young Liberals' proposals for legalizing necrophilia and consensual incest -- nowhere at all -- as it sounded absurdly sexist and anti-feminist.

                        But dyed-in-the-wool Australian feminist, comedian and author Catherine Deveney has revived the idea. The litmus test is simple:

                        Is it fair for people to be forced to become parents against their wishes? If it's not fair for a woman to be forced to bear a child or have an abortion, it follows it's not fair for a man to be forced to become a parent.


                        The idea becomes slightly more plausible in the light of the slogan “every child a wanted child”. What if a man does not want a child? How can you force him to love his wee sprog?

                        “I believe every baby should be wanted, and every parent should be willing,” writes Deveney. “When we consent to having sex, we do not automatically consent to becoming a parent. If, when a cis male and cis female have vaginal sex, their contraception fails, it doesn't mean both people have to become parents. The options are abortion, adoption, parenting together or sole parenting.”

                        The most obvious objection is that a man should be financially responsible for the child. But, says Deveney, “this kind of thinking is founded in oppressive heteronormative values and belongs in the 1950s.”

                        © Copyright Original Source


                        If we're going to continue to allow women to freely kill their children, then absolutely, equality/parity demands that we have some sort of financial abortion system in place for the man (so long as, as you noted, he has a timeline after official notification of the pregnancy/birth, and so long as with the financial abortion he terminates all future right to be involved in the child's life).

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          Not necessarily. He may have not wanted to engage initially but surely biology kicked in. He must have been able to penetrate and release at least some sperm if only a dribble.
                          Wow. Just wow. Sounds like you've never heard of rape. You sound similarly as ignorant as that Republican lawmaker who opined about women having 'biology' that kicks in to get rid of children if she was raped.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Gondwanaland View Post

                            Wow. Just wow. Sounds like you've never heard of rape. You sound similarly as ignorant as that Republican lawmaker who opined about women having 'biology' that kicks in to get rid of children if she was raped.
                            Just for the record I have asked her to take her "men can't be raped if they have an erection" argument to another thread.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              Can a woman actually "rape" a man?A sixteen year old having sex with a twelve year old is illegal in our societies but was the twelve year old boy forced against his consent? He presumably had an erection - otherwise I am thinking the mechanics would have been quite awkward and entailed a lot of fumbling. He presumably also released some sperm, either as drips or a full ejaculation, otherwise she could not have become pregant.
                              Just..... Just wow. There are no words for someone like you.
                              Last edited by Gondwanaland; 06-08-2021, 07:42 PM. Reason: EDIT per CD's request for H_A to take this absolute insanity to another thread.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                                Just for the record I have asked her to take her "men can't be raped if they have an erection" argument to another thread.
                                Ah, I haven't read that far, my bad. When she starts it I'll take both my posts over there.

                                Comment

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