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Assault weapons ban unconstitutional...

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  • rogue06
    replied
    While Biden was out mumbling incoherently and whispering into his mic (even liberal poodle Stephen Cobert called it "creepy") and implying that he'd use F-15s and even nukes against American gun owners, old Joe was also repeating the thoroughly debunked lie that the assault weapon ban passed under Clinton lowered crime rates.

    A DOJ study, conducted by the University of Pennsylvania Center of Criminology, and titled An Updated Assessment of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban: Impacts on Gun Markets and Gun Violence, 1994-2003 concluded that the ban could not be credited with any decrease in firearm-related violence.

    "We cannot clearly credit the ban with any of the nation’s recent drop in gun violence. And, indeed, there has been no discernible reduction in the lethality and injuriousness of gun violence, based on indicators like the percentage of gun crimes resulting in death or the share of gunfire incidents resulting in injury ... The ban’s impact on gun violence is likely to be small at best, and perhaps too small for reliable measurement. AWs [assault weapons] were used in no more than 8% of gun crimes even before the ban."


    To be fair they indicated that it might have been too early to get a true picture of the ban's effectiveness or lack of. Fortunately, Quinnipiac University did another study nearly a decade later (An examination of the effects of concealed weapons laws and assault weapons bans on state-level murder rates), which could also could find no connection between dropping rates of gun-related violence and the law ("assault weapons bans did not significantly affect murder rates at the state level").

    I think the fact that rates continued to drop after the ban expired is also telling.

    Leave a comment:


  • Faber
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    How many were by AR-15?
    And how many could have been prevented by banning assault weapons from law abiding citizens?

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

    I'm familiar with it and understand the difference between rural and city wrt guns. Though recently that difference appears to be getting blurred. I realize that when I was a kid on my grandparents farms and the surrounding communities it was exactly as you have described it.
    I remember my dad teaching me and my brother how to handle a shotgun when we were about 10 years old. He got us a 410 shotgun and we went squirrel hunting with him at my grandma's (who made them into excellent squirrel stew with dumplings, don't tell rogue06) He taught us how dangerous guns were, how never to point them at anyone, and how to make sure they were unloaded and even how to clean them. When I was around 15 I won a 12-guage at a raffle from the local Sears. Nobody said a thing about my age when I went to pick it up. Of course that was back in the 70s. Yes things are different now, but my point was that "everyone carrying guns" doesn't have to turn into the wild wild west, or some sort of gangland shootout. Most people carried and owned guns for the last 200 years of this country without that happening. In fact, the Wild West seen on TV and movies never really existed. It's a hollywoood invention. Sure there were criminals just like today, but most people lived a simple peaceful life, even with guns everywhere.

    Leave a comment:


  • oxmixmudd
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post

    I think there is a fundamental difference between how many urban and rural folk look at guns. Living in the countryside during much of my growing up I noticed that guns are just looked at as everyday tools. Everyone seems to have one (or more likely several), just like they have a lawn mower (tractor) and a pickup truck. Mostly shotguns and pistols. Used for hunting, killing snakes, "turkey" shoots (target shooting with prizes), and defense. People drive around with gun racks in their trucks. Heck we even had a gun club in our high school and kids would bring guns to school to target shoot. Nobody was worried, nobody went crazy and shot anyone, at school or in town. Nobody even looked sideways at anyone carrying a gun in public.
    I'm familiar with it and understand the difference between rural and city wrt guns. Though recently that difference appears to be getting blurred. I realize that when I was a kid on my grandparents farms and the surrounding communities it was exactly as you have described it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

    From a bunch of good 'old boys out on a lake after one too many beers.
    I think there is a fundamental difference between how many urban and rural folk look at guns. Living in the countryside during much of my growing up I noticed that guns are just looked at as everyday tools. Everyone seems to have one (or more likely several), just like they have a lawn mower (tractor) and a pickup truck. Mostly shotguns and pistols. Used for hunting, killing snakes, "turkey" shoots (target shooting with prizes), and defense. People drive around with gun racks in their trucks. Heck we even had a gun club in our high school and kids would bring guns to school to target shoot. Nobody was worried, nobody went crazy and shot anyone, at school or in town. Nobody even looked sideways at anyone carrying a gun in public.

    Leave a comment:


  • oxmixmudd
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Where do you think the adage an armed society is a polite society arose?
    From a bunch of good 'old boys out on a lake after one too many beers.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

    Absurd. On both counts. Civilization is not every citizen armed to the teeth and gunning each other down in the streets in some war between the good guys and the bad guys. That you think that is any kind of solution is beyond me.
    Where do you think the adage an armed society is a polite society arose?

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post


    Yeah, that's what we need. Everybody running around town with their AR-15 in the passenger seat and their 9mm in their holster.
    Naw. Too big and clumsy to use in a vehicle. That's why, back in the day, I kept a brace of 9mms holstered and preferred... um, never mind

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    You say that "Criminals are another problem entirely." No, criminals are the ONLY problem. None of your proposals will stop them. What criminal is going to bother getting a gun license? And why should honest citizens be expected to tell the government that they have a gun anyway? Frankly, it's nobody else's business. Outlawing private sales? May as well try to outlaw private ownership (good luck), and it still wouldn't stop the criminals. Oppressive background checks? Same thing.

    Personally, I would like to see guns become more ubiquitous in our society. To that end, let the Second Amendment be the first and last word on gun ownership. I believe that law abiding citizens significantly outnumber the criminal element, and it would certainly make the latter think twice if they knew there was a good chance their intended victims could shoot back. No more "defenseless victims" zones for mass shooters.
    There is likely a reason that, especially a few years ago, that mass shootings took place largely in "gun-free zones."

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

    FIFY n/c

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

    What are you guys looking for, and exhaustive list of proposed regulations and safeguards? Seems to me this is an argument for the sake of argument.
    Some of us have learned the danger of letting politicians use such nebulous language when talking about laws

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    I didn't say your source had to be wrong. I said I am skeptical of it and don't have time to investigate it right now.

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  • oxmixmudd
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Genetic fallacy.
    I didn't say your source had to be wrong. I said I am skeptical of it and don't have time to investigate it right now. If I had said it must be wrong, or that I would pass judgement on it without investigating it, then you'd be right. But as usual, you don't handle anything other than stark black and white dualistic choices particularly well.

    Begged question that contradicts the data.
    You didn't post data MM, you posted someone's commentary on studies that are based on data. But data that leads to the conclusion that putting a gun in everyone's hands is safer that not is suspect just because there is so much data to the contrary.

    As one example of a red flag I noticed reading your article, just looking at whether a state has stricter or looser gun laws does not necessarily tell you about the relative safety of more guns or less guns. The states with more restrictive gun laws may have them because they already have a greater problem with guns that forced the implementation of the laws to start with. To understand the effect of stricter gun controls on safety, you need to observe the effect of the gun laws on the overall safety before and after, and you have to make sure your results reflect the true effect of the laws (e.g. implementing a law that is only minimally enforced will not tell you much about how much effect such a law will have).
    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 06-10-2021, 05:59 PM.

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  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    Your sources are notoriously suspect...
    Genetic fallacy.

    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
    The end of everyone with a gun carrying it with them everywhere they go would be exactly what I outlined.
    Begged question that contradicts the data.

    Leave a comment:


  • oxmixmudd
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    What's absurd is the lengths you will go to ignore the data that supports my position and refutes yours.
    Your sources are notoriously suspect wrt this sort of thing. My guess is that a deep review would find most of it a distortion of the actual data, but I simply don't have time to do that right now. So I can't refute it, but neither am I going to accepts it's conclusions as fact until such an in depth analysis or it is done, either by myself or someone else.

    And this:

    "Civilization is not every citizen armed to the teeth and gunning each other down in the streets in some war between the good guys and the bad guys. That you think that is any kind of solution is beyond me."

    is nothing but a pile of burring straw that is only good for roasting marshmallows and destroying your credibility.
    Only to those that live in a fantasy world. It's simply the real consequence of you and rogue's claim that 'what we need are 'more' guns'. The end of everyone with a gun carrying it with them everywhere they go would be exactly what I outlined. What happens when every really angry drunk fellow has a gun nearby? Lots of people get shot (including the really angry drunk guy). What happens if no one at the party has a gun nearby? No-one get's shot.

    A person needs maturity, soberness, and self-control to carry a gun. And that is in short supply these days.

    Leave a comment:

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