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Assault weapons ban unconstitutional...

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  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    I'm not sure what you're basing your claims on, but it's certainly not the "settled science".

    (2013)

    A Harvard Study titled “Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide?” looks at figures for “intentional deaths” throughout continental Europe and juxtaposes them with the U.S. to show that more gun control does not necessarily lead to lower death rates or violent crime.

    Because the findings so clearly demonstrate that more gun laws may in fact increase death rates, the study says that “the mantra that more guns mean more deaths and that fewer guns, therefore, mean fewer deaths” is wrong.

    For example, when the study shows numbers for Eastern European gun ownership and corresponding murder rates, it is readily apparent that less guns to do not mean less death. In Russia, where the rate of gun ownership is 4,000 per 100,000 inhabitants, the murder rate was 20.52 per 100,000 in 2002. That same year in Finland, where the rater of gun ownership is exceedingly higher–39,000 per 100,000–the murder rate was almost nill, at 1.98 per 100,000.

    Looking at Western Europe, the study shows that Norway “has far and away Western Europe’s highest household gun ownership rate (32%), but also its lowest murder rate.”

    And when the study focuses on intentional deaths by looking at the U.S. vs Continental Europe, the findings are no less revealing. The U.S., which is so often labeled as the most violent nation in the world by gun control proponents, comes in 7th–behind Russia, Estonia, Lativa, Lithuania, Belarus, and the Ukraine–in murders. America also only ranks 22nd in suicides.

    The murder rate in Russia, where handguns are banned, is 30.6; the rate in the U.S. is 7.8.

    The authors of the study conclude that the burden of proof rests on those who claim more guns equal more death and violent crime; such proponents should “at the very least [be able] to show a large number of nations with more guns have more death and that nations that impose stringent gun controls have achieved substantial reductions in criminal violence (or suicide).” But after intense study the authors conclude “those correlations are not observed when a large number of nations are compared around the world.”

    In fact, the numbers presented in the Harvard study support the contention that among the nations studied, those with more gun control tend toward higher death rates.

    https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2...rime-violence/

    (2018)

    5. Higher rates of gun ownership are not associated with higher rates of violent crime.
    • Switzerland and Israel have much higher gun ownership rates than the United States but experience far fewer homicides and have much lower violent crime rates than many European nations with strict gun control laws.
      • While some will argue that the guns carried by Swiss and Israeli citizens are technically “owned” by the government in most cases, this does little to negate the fact that many citizens in those countries have ready access to firearms.
    • Canada is ranked 12th in the world for the number of civilian-owned guns per capita and reports one of the world’s lower homicide rates—but even then, some provinces have higher homicide rates than U.S. states with less restrictive laws and higher rates of gun ownership have.
    • Although many gun control advocates have noted that “right-to-carry” states tend to experience slight increases in violent crime, other studies have noted the opposite effect.
    • Higher rates of concealed carry permit holders are even more strongly associated with reduction in violent crime than are “right-to-carry” states. The probable reason for this is that “right-to-carry” studies often include “open carry” states, which have not been shown to correlate with more people actually carrying or even owning firearms. Rates of concealed carry permit holders are better indicators of the number of people who actually possess and carry firearms within a given population.
    • Further, as with most correlations, there are many other factors that can account for increases in concealed carry permits—including the fact that people who live in already dangerous neighborhoods seek out means of self-defense. The Huffington Post noted that the rate of concealed carry permit requests in Chicago has soared in recent years after the city loosened restrictions, in large part, according to the Chicago Tribune, because law-abiding residents are increasingly worried about rising rates of violent crime in the city.
    • The rate of gun ownership is higher among whites than it is among African-Americans, but the murder rate among African-Americans is significantly higher than the rate among whites.
    • Similarly, the rate of gun ownership is higher in rural areas than in urban areas, but urban areas experience higher murder rates.

    6. There is no clear relationship between strict gun control legislation and homicide or violent crime rates.
    • The Brady Campaign Against Gun Violence ironically makes this clear with its ratings for states based on gun laws. “Gun freedom” states that score poorly, like New Hampshire, Vermont, Idaho, and Oregon, have some of the lowest homicide rates. Conversely, “gun-control-loving” states that received high scores, like Maryland and Illinois, experience some of the nation’s highest homicide rates.
    • The Crime Prevention Research Center notes that, if anything, the data indicate that countries with high rates of gun ownership tend to have lower homicide rates—but this is only a correlation, and many factors do not necessarily support a conclusion that high rates of gun ownership cause the low rates of homicide.
    • Homicide and firearm homicide rates in Great Britain spiked in the years immediately following the imposition of severe gun control measures, despite the fact that most developed countries continued to experience a downward trend in these rates. This is also pointed out by noted criminologist John Lott in his book “The War on Guns.”
    • Similarly, Ireland’s homicide rates spiked in the years immediately following the country’s 1972 gun confiscation legislation.
    • Australia’s National Firearms Act appears to have had little effect on suicide and homicide rates, which were falling before the law was enacted and continued to decline at a statistically unremarkable rate compared to worldwide trends.
    • According to research compiled by John Lott and highlighted in his book “The War on Guns,” Australia’s armed and unarmed robbery rates both increased markedly in the five years immediately following the National Firearms Act, despite the general downward trend experienced by other developed countries.
    • Great Britain has some of the strictest gun control laws in the developed world, but the violent crime rate for homicide, rape, burglary, and aggravated assault is much higher than that in the U.S. Further, approximately 60 percent of burglaries in Great Britain occur while residents are home, compared to just 13 percent in the U.S., and British burglars admit to targeting occupied residences because they are more likely to find wallets and purses.
    • It is difficult to compare homicide and firearm-related murder rates across international borders because countries use different methods to determine which deaths “count” for purposes of violent crime. For example, since 1967, Great Britain has excluded from its homicide counts any case that does not result in a conviction, that was the result of dangerous driving, or in which the person was determined to have acted in self-defense. All of these factors are counted as “homicides” in the United States.

    7. Legally owned firearms are used for lawful purposes much more often than they are used to commit crimes or suicide.
    • In 2013, President Barack Obama ordered the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) to assess existing research on gun violence. The report, compiled by the Institute of Medicine and the National Research Council, found (among other things) that firearms are used defensively hundreds of thousands of times every year.
    • According to the CDC, “self-defense can be an important crime deterrent.” Recent CDC reports acknowledge that studies directly assessing the effect of actual defensive uses of guns have found “consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies.”
    • Semi-automatic rifles (such as the AR-15) are commonly used as self-defense weapons in the homes of law-abiding citizens because they are easier to control than handguns, are more versatile than handguns, and offer the advantage of up to 30 rounds of protection. Even Vox has published stories defending the use of the AR-15.
    • AR-15s have been used to save lives on many occasions, including:
      • Oswego, Illinois (2018) — A man with an AR-15 intervened to stop a neighbor’s knife attack and cited the larger weapon’s “intimidation factor” as a reason why the attacker dropped the knife.
      • Catawba County, North Carolina (2018) — A 17-year-old successfully fought off three armed attackers with his AR-15.
      • Houston, Texas (2017) — A homeowner survived a drive-by shooting by defending himself with his AR-15.
      • Broken Arrow, Oklahoma (2017) — A homeowner’s son killed three would-be burglars with an AR-15 (the man was later deemed to have acted in justifiable self-defense).
      • Ferguson, Missouri (2014) — African-American men protected a white man’s store from rioters by standing outside armed with AR-15s.
      • Texas (2013) — A 15-year-old boy used an AR-15 during a home invasion to save both his life and that of his 12-year-old sister.
      • Rochester, New York (2013) — Home intruders fled after facing an AR-15.

    8. Concealed carry permit holders are not the problem, but they may be part of the solution.
    • Noted criminologist John Lott found that, as a group, concealed carry permit holders are some of the most law-abiding people in the United States. The rate at which they commit crimes generally and firearm crimes specifically is between one-sixth and one-tenth of that recorded for police officers, who are themselves committing crimes at a fraction of the rate of the general population.
    • Between 2007 and 2015, murder rates dropped 16 percent and violent crime rates dropped 18 percent, even though the percentage of adults with concealed carry permits rose by 190 percent.
    • Regression estimates show a significant association between increased permit ownership and a drop in murder and violent crime rates. Each percentage point increase in rates of permit-holding is associated with a roughly 2.5 percent drop in the murder rate.
    • Concealed carry permit holders are often “the good guy with a gun,” even though they rarely receive the attention of the national media.
    https://www.heritage.org/crime-and-j...olence-america

    So while you sarcastically jibe, "Yeah, that's what we need. Everybody running around town with their AR-15 in the passenger seat and their 9mm in their holster," it turns out, that's exactly what we need if we want honest, law abiding citizens to be at a lower risk of becoming victims of violent crime. Meanwhile, you, like most other liberals, are champing at the bit to create a society where honest people are literally outgunned by the criminals.
    Absurd. On both counts. Civilization is not every citizen armed to the teeth and gunning each other down in the streets in some war between the good guys and the bad guys. That you think that is any kind of solution is beyond me.

    This idea that nothing can be done to stop criminals from having guns is also just nuts. Its just oh, say, a 'cudgel' used by those that want to keep their guns at any cost against those that would like to see daily mass shootings find their way into the history books.

    We can indeed pull it back to sanity if we just put our minds to it.

    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 06-10-2021, 07:57 AM.
    Mockery is the argument of the mentally and/or emotionally challenged.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

      Absurd. On both counts. Civilization is not every citizen armed to the teeth and gunning each other down in the streets in some war between the good guys and the bad guys. That you think that is any kind of solution is beyond me.


      This idea that nothing can be done to stop criminals from having guns is also just nuts. Its just oh, say, a 'cudgel' used by those that want to keep their guns at any cost against those that would like to see daily mass shootings find their way into the history books.

      We can indeed pull it back to sanity if we just put our minds to it.
      What's absurd is the lengths you will go to ignore the data that supports my position and refutes yours.

      And this:

      "Civilization is not every citizen armed to the teeth and gunning each other down in the streets in some war between the good guys and the bad guys. That you think that is any kind of solution is beyond me."

      is nothing but a pile of burring straw that is only good for roasting marshmallows and destroying your credibility.
      Last edited by Mountain Man; 06-10-2021, 09:49 AM.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        What's absurd is the lengths you will go to ignore the data that supports my position and refutes yours.
        Your sources are notoriously suspect wrt this sort of thing. My guess is that a deep review would find most of it a distortion of the actual data, but I simply don't have time to do that right now. So I can't refute it, but neither am I going to accepts it's conclusions as fact until such an in depth analysis or it is done, either by myself or someone else.

        And this:

        "Civilization is not every citizen armed to the teeth and gunning each other down in the streets in some war between the good guys and the bad guys. That you think that is any kind of solution is beyond me."

        is nothing but a pile of burring straw that is only good for roasting marshmallows and destroying your credibility.
        Only to those that live in a fantasy world. It's simply the real consequence of you and rogue's claim that 'what we need are 'more' guns'. The end of everyone with a gun carrying it with them everywhere they go would be exactly what I outlined. What happens when every really angry drunk fellow has a gun nearby? Lots of people get shot (including the really angry drunk guy). What happens if no one at the party has a gun nearby? No-one get's shot.

        A person needs maturity, soberness, and self-control to carry a gun. And that is in short supply these days.

        Mockery is the argument of the mentally and/or emotionally challenged.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          Your sources are notoriously suspect...
          Genetic fallacy.

          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          The end of everyone with a gun carrying it with them everywhere they go would be exactly what I outlined.
          Begged question that contradicts the data.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
            Genetic fallacy.
            I didn't say your source had to be wrong. I said I am skeptical of it and don't have time to investigate it right now. If I had said it must be wrong, or that I would pass judgement on it without investigating it, then you'd be right. But as usual, you don't handle anything other than stark black and white dualistic choices particularly well.

            Begged question that contradicts the data.
            You didn't post data MM, you posted someone's commentary on studies that are based on data. But data that leads to the conclusion that putting a gun in everyone's hands is safer that not is suspect just because there is so much data to the contrary.

            As one example of a red flag I noticed reading your article, just looking at whether a state has stricter or looser gun laws does not necessarily tell you about the relative safety of more guns or less guns. The states with more restrictive gun laws may have them because they already have a greater problem with guns that forced the implementation of the laws to start with. To understand the effect of stricter gun controls on safety, you need to observe the effect of the gun laws on the overall safety before and after, and you have to make sure your results reflect the true effect of the laws (e.g. implementing a law that is only minimally enforced will not tell you much about how much effect such a law will have).
            Last edited by oxmixmudd; 06-10-2021, 05:59 PM.
            Mockery is the argument of the mentally and/or emotionally challenged.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              I didn't say your source had to be wrong. I said I am skeptical of it and don't have time to investigate it right now.

              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                What are you guys looking for, and exhaustive list of proposed regulations and safeguards? Seems to me this is an argument for the sake of argument.
                Some of us have learned the danger of letting politicians use such nebulous language when talking about laws

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                  FIFY n/c

                  I'm always still in trouble again

                  "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                  "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                    You say that "Criminals are another problem entirely." No, criminals are the ONLY problem. None of your proposals will stop them. What criminal is going to bother getting a gun license? And why should honest citizens be expected to tell the government that they have a gun anyway? Frankly, it's nobody else's business. Outlawing private sales? May as well try to outlaw private ownership (good luck), and it still wouldn't stop the criminals. Oppressive background checks? Same thing.

                    Personally, I would like to see guns become more ubiquitous in our society. To that end, let the Second Amendment be the first and last word on gun ownership. I believe that law abiding citizens significantly outnumber the criminal element, and it would certainly make the latter think twice if they knew there was a good chance their intended victims could shoot back. No more "defenseless victims" zones for mass shooters.
                    There is likely a reason that, especially a few years ago, that mass shootings took place largely in "gun-free zones."

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post


                      Yeah, that's what we need. Everybody running around town with their AR-15 in the passenger seat and their 9mm in their holster.
                      Naw. Too big and clumsy to use in a vehicle. That's why, back in the day, I kept a brace of 9mms holstered and preferred... um, never mind

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                        Absurd. On both counts. Civilization is not every citizen armed to the teeth and gunning each other down in the streets in some war between the good guys and the bad guys. That you think that is any kind of solution is beyond me.
                        Where do you think the adage an armed society is a polite society arose?

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Where do you think the adage an armed society is a polite society arose?
                          From a bunch of good 'old boys out on a lake after one too many beers.
                          Mockery is the argument of the mentally and/or emotionally challenged.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                            From a bunch of good 'old boys out on a lake after one too many beers.
                            I think there is a fundamental difference between how many urban and rural folk look at guns. Living in the countryside during much of my growing up I noticed that guns are just looked at as everyday tools. Everyone seems to have one (or more likely several), just like they have a lawn mower (tractor) and a pickup truck. Mostly shotguns and pistols. Used for hunting, killing snakes, "turkey" shoots (target shooting with prizes), and defense. People drive around with gun racks in their trucks. Heck we even had a gun club in our high school and kids would bring guns to school to target shoot. Nobody was worried, nobody went crazy and shot anyone, at school or in town. Nobody even looked sideways at anyone carrying a gun in public.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                              I think there is a fundamental difference between how many urban and rural folk look at guns. Living in the countryside during much of my growing up I noticed that guns are just looked at as everyday tools. Everyone seems to have one (or more likely several), just like they have a lawn mower (tractor) and a pickup truck. Mostly shotguns and pistols. Used for hunting, killing snakes, "turkey" shoots (target shooting with prizes), and defense. People drive around with gun racks in their trucks. Heck we even had a gun club in our high school and kids would bring guns to school to target shoot. Nobody was worried, nobody went crazy and shot anyone, at school or in town. Nobody even looked sideways at anyone carrying a gun in public.
                              I'm familiar with it and understand the difference between rural and city wrt guns. Though recently that difference appears to be getting blurred. I realize that when I was a kid on my grandparents farms and the surrounding communities it was exactly as you have described it.
                              Mockery is the argument of the mentally and/or emotionally challenged.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                                I'm familiar with it and understand the difference between rural and city wrt guns. Though recently that difference appears to be getting blurred. I realize that when I was a kid on my grandparents farms and the surrounding communities it was exactly as you have described it.
                                I remember my dad teaching me and my brother how to handle a shotgun when we were about 10 years old. He got us a 410 shotgun and we went squirrel hunting with him at my grandma's (who made them into excellent squirrel stew with dumplings, don't tell rogue06) He taught us how dangerous guns were, how never to point them at anyone, and how to make sure they were unloaded and even how to clean them. When I was around 15 I won a 12-guage at a raffle from the local Sears. Nobody said a thing about my age when I went to pick it up. Of course that was back in the 70s. Yes things are different now, but my point was that "everyone carrying guns" doesn't have to turn into the wild wild west, or some sort of gangland shootout. Most people carried and owned guns for the last 200 years of this country without that happening. In fact, the Wild West seen on TV and movies never really existed. It's a hollywoood invention. Sure there were criminals just like today, but most people lived a simple peaceful life, even with guns everywhere.

                                Comment

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