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Assault weapons ban unconstitutional...

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  • #31
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

    The fact they could not envision what was coming can in fact mean that they did not consider the potential of trying to maintain the rights they proposed in said environments. In fact, that is more likely than the idea they considered all possible scenarios and went forward fully aware of the sort of situations we face today. In fact, I do believe that when Ben Franklin made clear that our system of government was only suitable for a MORAL people, he was getting a glimpse of what we face today - a society where morality has in many ways collapsed. For example, you can't have free access to guns when a significant percentage of the general population has no respect for life or the law, without also reaping carnage on the scale we are seeing.
    I am just glad you weren't there and in charge of the bill of rights, Jim.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post

      I am just glad you weren't there and in charge of the bill of rights, Jim.
      that^
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post

        and you are advocating taking away the rights of non criminals because of what criminals do. That is like arguing that we remove free speech because people have misused it to defame others, or even start riots or wars.
        You didn't answer my previous question Sparko. When does the cost in lives and wanton chaos outweigh the cost of having the sort of free access to guns we now have?

        And no, it's not like arguing the same thing wrt free speech.
        Last edited by oxmixmudd; 06-07-2021, 02:43 PM.
        Mockery is the argument of the mentally and/or emotionally challenged.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

          The fact they could not envision what was coming can in fact mean that they did not consider the potential of trying to maintain the rights they proposed in said environments. In fact, that is more likely than the idea they considered all possible scenarios and went forward fully aware of the sort of situations we face today. In fact, I do believe that when Ben Franklin made clear that our system of government was only suitable for a MORAL people, he was getting a glimpse of what we face today - a society where morality has in many ways collapsed. For example, you can't have free access to guns when a significant percentage of the general population has no respect for life or the law, without also reaping carnage on the scale we are seeing.
          Correct me if you're wrong but haven't you on more than one occasion argued the Framers never could have envisioned firearm technology of today (in spite of repeating weapons having been around for several generations at that point) so we shouldn't put much stock in the 2A as written.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

            You didn't answer my previous question Sparko. When does the cost in lives and wanton chaos outweigh the cost of having the sort of free access to guns we now have?
            It doesn't. When does the cost in lives and wanton chaos (e.g. race riots, violent protests this last year, looting) outweigh the cost of having free speech?

            And no, it's not like arguing the same thing wrt free speech.
            Yes, it is. The pen is mightier than the AR-15. You usually need to be in the same location to hurt someone with a gun. Words can hurt and kill people around the world and for many years to come.
            Last edited by Sparko; 06-07-2021, 02:50 PM.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

              I simply will never be able to celebrate this sort of 'victory'. The right to bear arms - far from being our savior - has become our curse.

              https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/r.../mass-shooting

              - consider the mass shootings in the US in just the last 2 weeks: (numbers columns are dead/injured)
              2026123 June 6, 2021 Florida Miami (Kendall) 10549 SW 109th Ct 3 6
              2026802 June 6, 2021 Missouri Saint Louis 100 N 7th St 0 4
              2026713 June 6, 2021 Utah Salt Lake City 1359 N General Dr 1 4
              2026651 June 6, 2021 North Carolina Maury Katie Ct 0 4
              2026112 June 6, 2021 Illinois Chicago 8900 block of S Cottage Grove Ave 0 8
              2026257 June 5, 2021 Louisiana New Orleans 10150 I-10 Service Rd 0 8
              2025260 June 5, 2021 Indiana Indianapolis 7500 N. Shadeland Ave 2 2
              2025891 June 4, 2021 Michigan Muskegon 1675 E. Sherman Blvd 1 3
              2022821 June 2, 2021 Ohio Toledo 1830 W Bancroft St 0 4
              2025254 June 2, 2021 Arkansas Magnolia Calhoun Rd 0 4
              2022391 June 2, 2021 Ohio Springfield 1935 S Yellow Springs St 0 6
              2021130 May 31, 2021 New York Brooklyn Knickerbocker Ave 0 4
              2021398 May 31, 2021 Missouri Saint Louis 8800 block of N Broadway 0 4
              2022129 May 31, 2021 Ohio Cleveland (Garfield Heights) 13000 block of Alvin Ave 1 5
              2019751 May 30, 2021 Alabama Aliceville 7th Street NE 1 4
              2019622 May 30, 2021 Florida Miami 7630 NW 186th St 3 20
              2020535 May 30, 2021 Illinois Chicago 6718 S Stony Island Ave 0 4
              2019155 May 29, 2021 Texas San Antonio 3300 block of Fallen Leaf Ln 2 2
              2019384 May 29, 2021 Missouri Saint Louis 10466 W Florissant Ave 1 3
              2018931 May 28, 2021 Florida Miami 2022 NW 1st Ct 1 6
              2018495 May 27, 2021 North Carolina Durham 1200 block of Fayetteville St 0 5
              2015849 May 26, 2021 Illinois Chicago 7200 block of S Princeton Ave 1 3
              2015730 May 26, 2021 California San Jose 101 W Younger Ave 10 0
              2014343 May 24, 2021 Michigan Inkster 27000 block of Rosewood St 2 2
              2014381 May 24, 2021 Ohio West Jefferson 127 Jackson St 4 0
              oh? You guys are including gang shootings as mass shootings now to pad your numbers? Interesting. So the left is then abandoning their talking point that white males commit most mass shootings if that is the route taken.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                and you are advocating taking away the rights of non criminals because of what criminals do. That is like arguing that we remove free speech because people have misused it to defame others, or even start riots or wars.
                Think about who you're arguing with. Liberals like ox are already in full favor of censoring and denying freedom of speech to the President of the United States. Censoring ordinary citizens like you and I would be such a small step for them that it's hardly a step at all.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                  I am just glad you weren't there and in charge of the bill of rights, Jim.
                  Bill of rights? 2nd amendment to the < insert answer here >
                  Mockery is the argument of the mentally and/or emotionally challenged.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Correct me if you're wrong but haven't you on more than one occasion argued the Framers never could have envisioned firearm technology of today (in spite of repeating weapons having been around for several generations at that point) so we shouldn't put much stock in the 2A as written.
                    Yes, I have argued that they did not envision the sorts of weapons we have today in terms of a hand held, light weight device that can easily deliver 20 rounds or more before reloading and that can be fired as fast as you can pull the trigger (unless modified to full auto). And in spite of the almost comical firearm configurations that you try to use as proof they actually could and did, I still don't believe they envisioned such weapons in the hands of civilians.
                    Last edited by oxmixmudd; 06-07-2021, 05:02 PM.
                    Mockery is the argument of the mentally and/or emotionally challenged.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                      It doesn't. When does the cost in lives and wanton chaos (e.g. race riots, violent protests this last year, looting) outweigh the cost of having free speech?
                      I don't consider the two even remotely equivalent - so you'll need another analogy. Guns are a weapon that has one purpose - to kill. And the right to own one, I believe, should be limited to those that have shown themselves mentally capable of wielding that power morally. If I'm stupid with my speech, people just ignore me. If I'm stupid with my gun, people die. If I walk into a restaurant and rant about the management at the top of my voice, people might be offended, but they all walk away. If a person walks into that same restraint with their AR 15 (or semi-automatic pistol) and they express their anger that way, the occupants may well all be dead.


                      Yes, it is. The pen is mightier than the AR-15. You usually need to be in the same location to hurt someone with a gun. Words can hurt and kill people around the world and for many years to come.
                      Sorry - I simply don't concede that as a valid argument wrt the reasons we need to reign in access to guns. The issue at hand is the nearly instantaneous carnage a gun can inflict in the hands of an insane, angry, or grossly immoral person.


                      Mockery is the argument of the mentally and/or emotionally challenged.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                        Yes, I have argued that they did not envision the sorts of weapons we have today in terms of a hand held, light weight device that can easily deliver 20 rounds or more before reloading and that can be fired as fast as you can pull the trigger (unless modified to full auto). And in spite of the almost comical firearm configurations that you try to use as proof they actually could and did, I still don't believe they envisioned such weapons in the hands of civilians.
                        Instead of your mere belief that the Founding Fathers would agree with you, how about quoting from their writings where they suggested that explicitly protected rights might need to be limited in the future.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                          Think about who you're arguing with. Liberals like ox are already in full favor of censoring and denying freedom of speech to the President of the United States. Censoring ordinary citizens like you and I would be such a small step for them that it's hardly a step at all.

                          So ... we are talking about the 2nd amendment, not the 1st. And other than to say I don't buy arguments based on treating them as equivalent, I've not said anything at all in this thread about the 1st amendment. So upon what do you base your current attempt to cast your derogatory bile my direction?
                          Mockery is the argument of the mentally and/or emotionally challenged.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                            Instead of your mere belief that the Founding Fathers would agree with you, how about quoting from their writings where they suggested that explicitly protected rights might need to be limited in the future.
                            You are the one claiming their decisions in this area encompass all times and situations. The burden of proof there is your own.

                            But they most certainly provided a means by which any element of the constitution could be amended or removed --- exhibit 1 in my defense.
                            Mockery is the argument of the mentally and/or emotionally challenged.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                              ...The pen is mightier than the AR-15. ...
                              Not in a crowded theatre ...
                              Mockery is the argument of the mentally and/or emotionally challenged.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                                Yes, I have argued that they did not envision the sorts of weapons we have today in terms of a hand held, light weight device that can easily deliver 20 rounds or more before reloading and that can be fired as fast as you can pull the trigger (unless modified to full auto). And in spite of the almost comical firearm configurations that you try to use as proof they actually could and did, I still don't believe they envisioned such weapons in the hands of civilians.
                                Do you think that they ever envisioned being able to somehow transmit an image of themselves as well as their voice live to (virtually if not literally) every square inch of the planet? In an era where the only thing they had to even increase the range of their voice was the equivalent to a cheerleader's megaphone? And in the hand of civilians?

                                So using your logic we need to discard the 1A for the same reason you see as being sufficiently legitimate to reject the 2A.

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                                Comment

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