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  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Or not.

    Or have the child, suffer PND and kill it,

    How many millions of potential adoptive parents are out there in just the US alone?

    While it is difficult to find an exact, accurate number to answer this question, Some sources estimate that there are about 2 million couples currently waiting to adopt in the United States — which means there are as many as 36 waiting families for every one child who is placed for adoption. Based on this couples waiting to adopt statistic, many couples are waiting to adopt.
    https://www.americanadoptions.com/pr...ptive_families

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

      While it is difficult to find an exact, accurate number to answer this question, Some sources estimate that there are about 2 million couples currently waiting to adopt in the United States — which means there are as many as 36 waiting families for every one child who is placed for adoption. Based on this couples waiting to adopt statistic, many couples are waiting to adopt.
      https://www.americanadoptions.com/pr...ptive_families
      I am not disputing the option of adoption but not all women are in a position to continue a pregnancy to term or may simply not want to do so. And I assume the number of potential adoptive parents is finite. Will there be 3/4 million year on year?
      "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

        I am not disputing the option of adoption but not all women are in a position to continue a pregnancy to term or may simply not want to do so. And I assume the number of potential adoptive parents is finite. Will there be 3/4 million year on year?
        Nothing will change your mind and your excuses are never ending. Personally I don't think wanting to skip 9 months of pregnancy is worth the the entire life of the unborn child. So whining to me about how the mom should be able to kill her child more easily and cheaply is a waste of time.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post

          Nothing will change your mind
          Nor yours.

          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          and your excuses are never ending.
          And yours are somewhat over-simplistic.

          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          Personally I don't think wanting to skip 9 months of pregnancy is worth the the entire life of the unborn child.
          Writes someone who has never been pregnant.

          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          So whining to me about how the mom should be able to kill her child more easily and cheaply is a waste of time.
          Which leads me to wonder why you decided to make any posts whatsoever to a thread that I have started and that deals with abortion.

          Surely by now you know my views on this topic?
          "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            It does not seem to bother the pro-birthers.

            Oh I think it is definitely that desire that lies at the root of it. Although the US Christian anti-abortion campaign arose as a result of from concerns about money not morality..
            I agree Christians were duped into going all in with the entire Republican agenda through the issue of the rise of abortion as the single most important issue to evangelal Christianity. But I would take exception to the idea that most evangelicals are against abortion out of any desire to control women. The sense that the fetus is a human being from conception is real, and their sense that killing a fetus at any stage of development is in fact murder is also quite real. Surely you understand that killing another human being is only justified if that person actually threatens the life of the other. I can't kill someone for stealing everything I own and leaving me destitute. I can't kill someone who seduces my wife and children and leaves me alone and broken. The only justification for killing another human being is if they threaten someone's life. And that is what motivates them even in this discussion. Now that changes if it can be shown that in the beginning this isn't actually yet a human persons and somewhere along the way a transition occurs. But that is not what is believed by most your argue with here - male and female.

            I have mixed feelings about late abortions. However, apart from medical issues, it would appear that most of these are done because of lack of provision, as mentioned, the costs and difficulties of getting to an abortion clinic.
            Well that is a problem, but as I've noted above - once that fetus meets every meaningful scientific definition of a human being, justifying taking it's life becomes an exercise in justifying murder outside mortal threat. And that is the contradiction, the hypocrisy every pro-abortion person faces with late term abortions. The willfull and premeditated killing a human being excepting their threat to your life is by definition murder. So for conscience sake, for moralities sake, I do not believe we can allow abortion past the point where we understand the developing fetus to be a human being. Doing that, no matter what the legalities are, violates our own conscience.

            In my opinion the provision has to be there and easily accessed. Unwanted pregnancies will always happen. We read stories of dead newborns being found in rivers and rubbish tips. I therefore consider it far better to have legal and medically safe abortion available as early in the pregnancy as possible. There should also be easy access to the so-called Morning After pill or other over-the-counter drugs.
            As I think I've said before, defining the fetus as a human being in the earliest stages is a Religious decision. It can't be justified scientifically. Likewise, defining a late term aborted fetus NOT a human being is also unjustifiable scientifically. So I don't see how we can be consistent morally or legally and allow abortion outside a direct threat to the mothers life throughout the entire pregnancy. The way I see it, even Rape and Incest exceptions lose their capacity to remain moral decisions the later in the pregnancy the abortion is scheduled. So argumentation for abortion are limited by that reality. The later it happens the more general the realization a human being is dying to the point abortion in he last trimester becomes problematic for almost all people..
            Last edited by oxmixmudd; 06-11-2021, 12:10 PM.
            Mockery is the argument of the mentally and/or emotionally challenged.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

              I agree Christians were duped into going all in with the entire Republican agenda through the issue of the rise of abortion as the single most important issue to evangelal Christianity.
              I think that topic was one of the first threads I ever posted here. https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...oming-pro-life


              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              But I would take exception to the idea that most evangelicals are against abortion out of any desire to control women.
              I would disagree. Patriarchy is deeply embedded in our culture.

              The sense that the fetus is a human being from conception is real, and their sense that killing a fetus at any stage of development is in fact murder is also quite real.

              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              Surely you understand that killing another human being is only justified if that person actually threatens the life of the other.
              That condemns almost every military action ever undertaken in recent decades.


              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              Well that is a problem, but as I've noted above - once that fetus meets every meaningful scientific definition of a human being, justifying taking it's life becomes an exercise in justifying murder outside mortal threat.
              I disagree. And if provision was available as soon as possible after conception, then apart from medical grounds, there would be no need for late term abortions.

              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              As I think I've said before, defining the fetus as a human being in the earliest stages is a Religious decision.
              And a philosophical contention. Ensoulment etc.

              Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
              It can't be justified scientifically. Likewise, defining a late term aborted fetus NOT a human being is also unjustifiable scientifically. So I don't see how we can be consistent morally or legally and allow abortion outside a direct threat to the mothers life throughout the entire pregnancy. The way I see it, even Rape and Incest exceptions lose their capacity to remain moral decisions the later in the pregnancy the abortion is scheduled.
              I think we must agree to disagree on some of these points.
              "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                Nor yours.
                probably not since I value human life over convenience.
                And yours are somewhat over-simplistic.
                unlike yours which are callous.

                Writes someone who has never been pregnant.
                I told you, I identify as pregnant.



                Which leads me to wonder why you decided to make any posts whatsoever to a thread that I have started and that deals with abortion.
                To point out how callous your views are and that I applaud the laws that limit or eliminate abortion.

                Surely by now you know my views on this topic?
                So?


                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  probably not since I value human life over convenience.
                  The standard and somewhat uniformed comment that a woman only has an abortion for her convenience! The reasons for obtaining abortions are myriad.

                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  I told you, I identify as pregnant.
                  Couvade?

                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post

                  To point out how callous your views are and that I applaud the laws that limit or eliminate abortion.
                  I am a realist.
                  "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                    The standard and somewhat uniformed comment that a woman only has an abortion for her convenience! The reasons for obtaining abortions are myriad.
                    and unless it is to save the life of the mother, none of them rise to the level of justification for killing an unborn child.

                    Couvade?
                    If women can identify as men, then I can identify as pregnant. Don't be such a bigot.

                    I am a realist.
                    No, you are a leftist.


                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      The standard and somewhat uniformed comment that a woman only has an abortion for her convenience! The reasons for obtaining abortions are myriad.

                      Couvade?

                      I am a realist.
                      https://bmcwomenshealth.biomedcentra...472-6874-13-29
                      AReasons.PNG

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        I think that topic was one of the first threads I ever posted here. https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...oming-pro-life


                        I would disagree. Patriarchy is deeply embedded in our culture.
                        The fact patriarchy is deeply impeded doesn't mean it drives opinions on this issue. What objective evidence would point to a desire to control women over a simple belief abortion is murder?

                        The sense that the fetus is a human being from conception is real, and their sense that killing a fetus at any stage of development is in fact murder is also quite real.

                        That condemns almost every military action ever undertaken in recent decades.
                        Not that I can see. The response to 911 was a response to a real and demonstrated mortal attack on us soil and a demonstrated mortal threat across the world. But I agree military actions often are not justifiable. But also we must note their is a clear divide between military law and wartime actions and ongoing civil law.

                        And with abortion we are not talking military. We are talking civil law that results on the death of a developing human child and a debate over the legality of taking its life and when it becomes a person.

                        I disagree. And if provision was available as soon as possible after conception, then apart from medical grounds, there would be no need for late term abortions.
                        That is possibly true. But that doesn't change the moral argument. Allowing late term abortion when the fetus is viable outside the womb is chosing to kill a human person for convenience by any objective definition. And that is where we cross the divide into what may or may not be murder into trying to claim that there are positions of convenience that justify murder. And logically that opens the door to such debates over people nor merely confined to a womb.


                        And a philosophical contention. Ensoulment etc.


                        I think we must agree to disagree on some of these points.
                        Probably, but it is worth, I think, at least making the points.
                        Mockery is the argument of the mentally and/or emotionally challenged.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          and unless it is to save the life of the mother, none of them rise to the level of justification for killing an unborn child.
                          Oh please spare me the sanctimonious cant. Children who are wanted and loved die everyday from disease [many of which are preventable] famine, and war.

                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          If women can identify as men, then I can identify as pregnant. Don't be such a bigot.
                          Couvade?

                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          No, you are a leftist.
                          Ah the worst crime of all!

                          "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by HA
                            Couvade?
                            Stop being so ignorant.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by mossrose View Post

                              Stop being so ignorant.
                              You clearly do not understand the term.
                              "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                                You clearly do not understand the term.
                                I did understand the term. Stop assuming that people have no idea what you are talking about, because you are oh, so smart.

                                So stop being so ignorant. You knew exactly what Sparky was saying. To pretend otherwise is pure ignorance on your part.


                                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                                Comment

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