Is Israel practising a form of apartheid?

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

An awful lot of unintended irony in that post

Hmm well.... I could offer a similar comment about various remarks made elsewhere!

[Gondwanaland]

Please quote my exact words where I supposedly denied civilian deaths.

You literally claimed I was brainwashed for stating the fact that most of thedeaths were civilians. That is literally the definition of denying them

[Mountain Man]

You literally claimed I was brainwashed for stating the fact that most of thedeaths were civilians. That is literally the definition of denying them

The fact is, most deaths are not civilian despite the claims of Hamas and their lapdogs in the UN and Western news organizations. The majority of those killed in military strikes are fighting aged men.

My stating this does not come anywhere close to claiming there are no civilian causalities. In fact, I have conceded multiple times in this thread that Palestinian military is well known for staging operations in areas where civilian causalities are all but guaranteed when their opponents return fire.

[Gondwanaland]

The fact is, most deaths are not civilian despite the claims of Hamas and their lapdogs in the UN and Western news organizations. The majority of those killed in military strikes are fighting aged men.

My stating this does not come anywhere close to claiming there are no civilian causalities. In fact, I have conceded multiple times in this thread that Palestinian military is well known for staging operations in areas where civilian causalities are all but guaranteed when their opponents return fire.

That is what Israel likes to claim, yes. The bodies tell another story.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

That is what Israel likes to claim, yes. The bodies tell another story.

Although its attributions can apparently be traced farther back in history there is this: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/02/11/nits/

In 1866 an article in a New York newspaper printed an excerpt from a periodical in Idaho that contained an instance of the expression applied to Native Americans: ⁷

These are the wretches the Government pamper, and Governor Lyon’s sickly sentiment in favor of preserving them is all bosh. We say kill them off, the faster the better, without distinction—nits make lice.”

[Esther]

No, Israel is not practising a form of apartheid. I live in South Africa and know the difference. Here is a good link from the Jerusalem Post:

https://www.jpost.com/opinion/israel...itorial-666516

[Mountain Man]

That is what Israel likes to claim, yes. The bodies tell another story.

Here's another article from 2014:

Hamas lies systematically, instructing civilians to misinform the foreign press. It lies habitually, with a formidable record of mendacity from previous conflicts. And it lies guiltlessly, convinced that the objectives of ‘resistance’ supersede quaint notions of truth-telling.

Nonetheless, since Israel launched Operation Protective Edge over a month ago, Western media have relied on Gaza’s Hamas-run Health Ministry – as here, here and here – for casualty tallies. As one reporter told the Washington Post, when it comes to body counts, the Hamas Health Minister Ashraf Al-Qidra is "the only game in town."

For his part, Qidra has acknowledged that he considers any fatality who has not been claimed by an armed group as a civilian. And for its part, the Hamas leadership almost never admits its operatives have been killed – and instructs Gazans to do the same. Consequently, Qidra’s running total labels three-quarters of Gaza deaths as civilians.

[...]

Objective analysis of the available data reveals that rather than civilians making up the “vast majority” of Gaza deaths – as the media regularly reported – the proportion appears closer to half. Hundreds of dead civilians are hardly reason to celebrate, but a 1-to-1 civilian casualty ratio is remarkably low by the grim standards of war. Coalition efforts in Afghanistan, for example, produced a 3-to-1 ratio, and 4-to-1 in Iraq. Given Hamas tactics of firing rockets from densely populated civilian areas, the toll in Gaza could have been immeasurably higher.

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/artic...edia-bought-it

Hate to break it to you, but you've totally bought into the propaganda of a terrorist organization.

[Starlight]

First of all Jews had been migrating to the Holy Land in significant numbers since the late 1800s.

False, unless you define 'significant numbers' very differently to I do.

Second, it was not their fault that they were forcibly from their homeland in the first place.

Irrelevant. I do not consider events two millennia earlier justification for anything. I'm willing to listen to arguments that events 100 years ago might be justification for something, though I'd be skeptical. But 2000 years ago? You've got to be joking in suggesting that has relevance.

Third, you are correct we all pretty much live on stole land, so that is not an argument.

That's disgusting and pathetic and immoral.

Firstly, it's not true.

Secondly, it hugely matters when it happened. It happening during our lifetimes is hugely and importantly different to it happening hundreds or thousands of years ago. In one case, the people who were wronged are still alive, as are the people who wronged them, and thus some sort of justice and redress is possible. If it happened hundreds or thousands of years ago, the people who were wronged are dead as are those who wronged them and justice and redress is no longer possible.

Fourth, there has neve been a Palestinian State in history.

What a stupid statement. The area of Palestine has been part of a large number of Arab Muslim countries/empires in history which have governed the Arab Muslims living in the Palestine region.

And given the history of the Holocaust and anti semitism (which as I linked is on the rise in Europe and the US) the Jews need and want a defendable homeland.

Stealing land from the middle of their enemies is inherently not very defendable. Literally anywhere else in the world would have been a better choice. An island. America. Guilt tripping Germany & pressuring Poland enough for them to cede land to create a Jewish state in Europe. Literally anywhere else in the world would have been a better choice than right in the middle of Muslim nations on top of those Muslim nations' sacred sites.

[One Bad Pig]

If anyone believes the above, II got some swampland in Florida to sell ya.

There really IS swampland in Florida. You might want to reconsider using that particular turn of phrase.

Christians who support Israel because of their Christianity are largely doing so for dodgy theological reasons. That lots of Christians (mostly in the US) do so does not make the reasons any less dodgy.

Interesting. Nowhere did I defend Hamas. You just pulled that from your nether orifice. Criticizing the war crimes of Israel is not defending Hamas. Nice try, though. Keep defending those war crimes. 60 kids in less than a week.

You defended Hamas' narrative, which as MM showed is often mendaciously self-serving. You flat out ignored all of MM's evidence, and then pretended he hadn't given any.

[Gondwanaland]

Here's another article from 2014:

Hamas lies systematically, instructing civilians to misinform the foreign press. It lies habitually, with a formidable record of mendacity from previous conflicts. And it lies guiltlessly, convinced that the objectives of ‘resistance’ supersede quaint notions of truth-telling.

Nonetheless, since Israel launched Operation Protective Edge over a month ago, Western media have relied on Gaza’s Hamas-run Health Ministry – as here, here and here – for casualty tallies. As one reporter told the Washington Post, when it comes to body counts, the Hamas Health Minister Ashraf Al-Qidra is "the only game in town."

For his part, Qidra has acknowledged that he considers any fatality who has not been claimed by an armed group as a civilian. And for its part, the Hamas leadership almost never admits its operatives have been killed – and instructs Gazans to do the same. Consequently, Qidra’s running total labels three-quarters of Gaza deaths as civilians.

[...]

Objective analysis of the available data reveals that rather than civilians making up the “vast majority” of Gaza deaths – as the media regularly reported – the proportion appears closer to half. Hundreds of dead civilians are hardly reason to celebrate, but a 1-to-1 civilian casualty ratio is remarkably low by the grim standards of war. Coalition efforts in Afghanistan, for example, produced a 3-to-1 ratio, and 4-to-1 in Iraq. Given Hamas tactics of firing rockets from densely populated civilian areas, the toll in Gaza could have been immeasurably higher.

https://www.usnews.com/opinion/artic...edia-bought-it

Hate to break it to you, but you've totally bought into the propaganda of a terrorist organization.

Says the man who blindly believes the terrorist organization of Israel.

[Starlight]

Says the man who blindly believes the terrorist organization of Israel.

US evangelicals are so indoctrinated on this issue, it's pointless talking to them. Their bubble is a mile thick.

[seer]

False, unless you define 'significant numbers' very differently to I do.

I would consider tens of thousands significant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah...liyah_(1882_on)

Irrelevant. I do not consider events two millennia earlier justification for anything. I'm willing to listen to arguments that events 100 years ago might be justification for something, though I'd be skeptical. But 2000 years ago? You've got to be joking in suggesting that has relevance.

That's disgusting and pathetic and immoral.

Firstly, it's not true.

Secondly, it hugely matters when it happened. It happening during our lifetimes is hugely and importantly different to it happening hundreds or thousands of years ago. In one case, the people who were wronged are still alive, as are the people who wronged them, and thus some sort of justice and redress is possible. If it happened hundreds or thousands of years ago, the people who were wronged are dead as are those who wronged them and justice and redress is no longer possible.

Sorry your moral opinion carries no weight with me. The fact is this is the Jewish ancestral and religious homeland.

What a stupid statement. The area of Palestine has been part of a large number of Arab Muslim countries/empires in history which have governed the Arab Muslims living in the Palestine region.

The fact is these Arab rulers never offered the Palestinian natives their own state. Period.

Stealing land from the middle of their enemies is inherently not very defendable. Literally anywhere else in the world would have been a better choice. An island. America. Guilt tripping Germany & pressuring Poland enough for them to cede land to create a Jewish state in Europe. Literally anywhere else in the world would have been a better choice than right in the middle of Muslim nations on top of those Muslim nations' sacred sites.

Right as antisemitism is on the rise just about everywhere. They need and deserve their ancestral homeland with their sacred sites. And that isn't going to change unless they are wiped off the land.

[rogue06]

The "intelligence" was about Nigeria and the buying of new yellowcake. Not about extant yellowcake that was known about by us and the UN since 1991, that was sitting in decaying containers. You're being straight dishonest at this point.

You issued a blanket statement about what you thought about the "US's idea of 'credible evidence' is (yellowcake uranium in Iraq, anyone?)."

I simply pointed out that there was indeed yellow cake uranium in Iraq. 550 tons of it.

[CivilDiscourse]

You issued a blanket statement about what you thought about the "US's idea of 'credible evidence' is (yellowcake uranium in Iraq, anyone?)."

I simply pointed out that there was indeed yellow cake uranium in Iraq. 550 tons of it.

Rogue06, your choosing the wrong hill to die on here.

[Gondwanaland]

There really IS swampland in Florida. You might want to reconsider using that particular turn of phrase.

Er.... I used the turn of phrase correctly. you might want to know the correct use of the phrase before Telling people to reconsider their use of it.

Swampland in Florida is a figure of speech referring to real estate scams in which a seller misrepresents unusable swampland as developable property. These types of unseen property scams became widely known in the United States in the 20th century, and the phrase is often used metaphorically for any scam that misrepresents what is being sold. Expressions like "If you believe that, then I have swampland in Florida to sell you", suggests the recipient is gullible enough to fall for an obvious fraud. Similar phrases involve "selling" the Brooklyn Bridge or nonexistent "oceanfront property in Arizona".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swam...in_of_the_term

Christians who support Israel because of their Christianity are largely doing so for dodgy theological reasons. That lots of Christians (mostly in the US) do so does not make the reasons any less dodgy.

You defended Hamas' narrative, which as MM showed is often mendaciously self-serving. You flat out ignored all of MM's evidence, and then pretended he hadn't given any.

No, I criticized Israel and their narrative.