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The cancel culture and its comparable historical antecedents

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  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

    The point being made is that "just because someone was a non-entity in life and when they died,
    Except that neither Van Gogh or Vermeer were nonentities [a person of no importance]. Hence the allegation that Van Gogh " lived and died a nonentity" is erroneous.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Given the criteria that H_A seeks to establish here, it is safe to say that we should be summarily dismiss virtually everything chronicled in written records. All of it goes straight to the rubbish bin.
    A very silly comment as the points that I made, and which you chose not to address, in my reply to you here, https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...y-and-theology clearly demonstrate.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    First of all, yes, the gospels do record firsthand eyewitness testimony.

    Secondly, the burden is on you to prove that this testimony is unreliable.
    Given the criteria that H_A seeks to establish here, it is safe to say that we should be summarily dismiss virtually everything chronicled in written records. All of it goes straight to the rubbish bin.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    Those accounts are not by eye-witnesses and furthermore, eye witnesses are often far from reliable.
    First of all, yes, the gospels do record firsthand eyewitness testimony.

    Secondly, the burden is on you to prove that this testimony is unreliable.

    Leave a comment:


  • CivilDiscourse
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    FWIU Vermeer died in obscurity with nearly everything he painted sold after his death with the names of other artists attached to them so they would sell!
    Honestly, What's going on is a tactic I like to call "agruing about a tree so you can ignore the forest."

    The point being made is that "just because someone was a non-entity in life and when they died, it doesn't mean that they had no impact on the world." There's a number of examples, Emily Dickinson, Van Gogh, Vermeer, etc.

    However, what we are seeing is instead of actually addressing the point, HA is instead arguing about the examples. Because if she can discredit the example, she doesn't have to actually address the actual point.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    I wonder why you clipped the last sentence from my post?

    "And yet skeptics think it strange that there are 'only' four complete eye witness accounts about the ministry and teachings of Jesus."
    Those accounts are not by eye-witnesses and furthermore, eye witnesses are often far from reliable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    FWIU Vermeer died in obscurity with nearly everything he painted sold after his death with the names of other artists attached to them so they would sell!
    He did not die in obscurity. He was a member of his local painting guild and twice elected as its head. His paintings were collected by local patrons [which may explain why he was not more widely known] and after his death a small coterie of aficionados continued to admire his work.

    He certainly died in debt but that was in part due to the economic conditions in the Netherlands following its invasion by France in 1672. https://www.britannica.com/biography...orking-methods

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Pliny the Younger was a teenager who observed the eruption, albeit from the other side of the Bay of Naples. In later life he wrote two letters to Tacitus recounting his experience and the accounts he received concerning his uncle's death.

    https://www.bartleby.com/9/4/1065.html
    and
    https://www.bartleby.com/9/4/1066.html

    Of course it also possible that other sources did record the event but they have not come down to us.
    I wonder why you clipped the last sentence from my post?

    "And yet skeptics think it strange that there are 'only' four complete eye witness accounts about the ministry and teachings of Jesus."

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

    If you wish to reply you may do so here:
    https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...y-and-theology
    I did.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

    Christ is the reason Christian faith exists HA. On the night of His last Passover feast, he took it and its customary food and created what we practice as Communion. And during His ministry he used Baptism as a foundational sign of repentance, though it was His disciples that Baptized. He was of course Baptized himself by His cousin John. These two things are our only necessary deeds, our only necessary practices, and He instituted them. His teachings as they are recorded in the Gospels and the writings of His disciples form the basis for what every Christian has believed from the time of His ministry on Earth till now.

    You are at least partially correct in that Jesus was Jewish by birth, and the longed for Messiah, and he did in fact take on that role. Not only did He take it on, he fulfilled it. Judaism and Christian faith are forever related in that way.

    What you are doing here as you did in the previous comment is to take a distinctive of Christian faith and then use it to say something derogatory about Christian faith and practice. I'm not sure what is motivating you to do that, whether it is ignorance or hostility, but the implications you are drawing from these basic and well understand facts about who Jesus was are simply wrong.
    I have replied to your comments here: https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...cal-constructs

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

    Yes, the eruption of Vesuvius is a curious one. It was a major cataclysmic event that would have been audible for possibly hundreds of miles with a smoke plume that could be seen for possibly thousands of miles, it destroyed several cities in what was a major economic and trading hub, killed possibly thousands of people and directly and indirectly impacted thousands more, and yet there is not one single contemporary account of it. Surely countless people knew about it, including eyewitnesses and friends and relatives of those who were killed, but nobody thought to put it down in writing until decades later.
    Pliny the Younger was a teenager who observed the eruption, albeit from the other side of the Bay of Naples. In later life he wrote two letters to Tacitus recounting his experience and the accounts he received concerning his uncle's death.

    https://www.bartleby.com/9/4/1065.html
    and
    https://www.bartleby.com/9/4/1066.html

    Of course it also possible that other sources did record the event but they have not come down to us.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hypatia_Alexandria
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    I believe that we once went over the rarity of contemporaneous literature from the ancient world, including works that would definitely have been copied multiple times for decades if not centuries, but are totally lost to us.

    And yet here we have not one but four complete works, not just fragments of quotes like so many other works of the era, with three of them being compiled not long (a few decades) after His death. Considering that the people back then were overwhelmingly illiterate, meaning societies where oral tradition was strong, there was no need to rush anything into writing, but we still have these books from a time when there would still be a good number of eyewitnesses alive -- including a few key ones.

    That is pretty much what we have for the great Carthaginian general Hannibal. You know, the guy who took the elephants through the Alps. Utterly annihilated a couple Roman armies in battle. There had to be an awful lot of ink spilled about him, not just while he was active but for the next generation. But the first time he's ever mentioned is somewhere between 40 and 80 years later by Polybius.

    But for someone like Hannibal, someone we should had a virtual library full of contemporary references and allusions to, the first reference not being for some four to eight decades is perfectly understandable.

    And as I previously noted the very earliest mention of the eruption of Vesuvius killing nearly a quarter million people and was not far from Naples, a city, renowned for having a higher than average literacy rate, comes three full decades later in an oft-hand remark by Pliny the Younger. And we have no mention that Herculaneum was also destroyed until Cassius Dio in the third century.
    If you wish to reply you may do so here:
    https://theologyweb.com/campus/forum...y-and-theology

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

    Oh no, I repeated folklore....:) Based on the fact that only one painting was ever offically sold.

    Source: https://www.thoughtco.com/van-gogh-sold-only-one-painting-4050008

    Although lore has it that the post-Impressionist painter, Vincent van Gogh (1853-1890), sold only one painting during his lifetime, different theories exist. The one painting commonly thought to have been sold is The Red Vineyard at Arles (The Vigne Rouge), now located at the Pushkin Museum of Fine Arts in Moscow. However, some sources posit that different paintings sold first, and that other paintings and drawings were sold or bartered in addition to The Red Vineyard at Arles. However, it is true that The Red Vineyard at Arles is the only painting soldduring van Gogh's lifetime the name of which we actually know, and that was "officially" recorded and acknowledged by the art world, and hence the lore persists.

    Of course, bearing in mind that van Gogh didn't start painting until he was twenty-seven years old, and died when he was thirty-seven, it would not be unremarkable that he did not sell many. Furthermore, the paintings that were to become famous were the ones produced after he went to Arles, France in 1888, only two years before he died. What is remarkable is that just a few decades after his death, his art would become well-known worldwide and that he would eventually become one of the most famous artists ever.

    © Copyright Original Source

    FWIU Vermeer died in obscurity with nearly everything he painted sold after his death with the names of other artists attached to them so they would sell!

    Leave a comment:


  • Mountain Man
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    And as I previously noted the very earliest mention of the eruption of Vesuvius killing nearly a quarter million people and was not far from Naples, a city, renowned for having a higher than average literacy rate, comes three full decades later in an oft-hand remark by Pliny the Younger. And we have no mention that Herculaneum was also destroyed until Cassius Dio in the third century.
    Yes, the eruption of Vesuvius is a curious one. It was a major cataclysmic event that would have been audible for possibly hundreds of miles with a smoke plume that could be seen for possibly thousands of miles, it destroyed several cities in what was a major economic and trading hub, killed possibly thousands of people and directly and indirectly impacted thousands more, and yet there is not one single contemporary account of it. Surely countless people knew about it, including eyewitnesses and friends and relatives of those who were killed, but nobody thought to put it down in writing until decades later. And yet skeptics think it strange that there are "only" four complete eye witness accounts about the ministry and teachings of Jesus.

    Oh, and look what picture I stumbled across on the Wikipedia page for Pompeii.

    800px-Pompei_-_Sappho_-_MAN.jpg
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pompei...ppho_-_MAN.jpg

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    Seems I've read somewhere that the term "Christian" was originally intended to be disparaging, but those so called enthusiastically embraced it.
    I've often heard that, yes. "You people act just like that Christ we killed....." And, since they were trying to be LIKE Christ...

    Leave a comment:

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