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  • #46
    I'd like to applaud Stoic for managing to turn this into yet another "COVID iS TrUmPS! FauLt!1!1!!" thread.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. Ė St. John Chrysostom

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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #47
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      I'd like to applaud Stoic for managing to turn this into yet another "COVID iS TrUmPS! FauLt!1!1!!" thread.
      It's a Stoic and Ox tag team. But Stoic has nothing on Ox. Ox is the grand master of all things OMB.
      "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

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      • #48
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        I'd like to applaud Stoic for managing to turn this into yet another "COVID iS TrUmPS! FauLt!1!1!!" thread.
        It wasn't intentional, though I don't think you can really have too many of them.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

          Before I reply - please state explicitly why you have brought Newsome and Cuomo into the conversation so we can talk about the issue you actually have in mind.
          Because they are among the governors who handled the Chinese coronavirus the worst in the country and would hardly care if Trump would mobilize his base against them since they are in two of the "bluest" states in the country.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #50
            The whole "lockdown" thing reminds me of the metaphor that Leftists never met a crisis they didn't love, because it's just another excuse to take power. And in this case of lockdowns, it is a double win for them because they also manage to destroy free enterprise at the same time. Yippee!

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Ronson View Post
              The whole "lockdown" thing reminds me of the metaphor that Leftists never met a crisis they didn't love, because it's just another excuse to take power. And in this case of lockdowns, it is a double win for them because they also manage to destroy free enterprise at the same time. Yippee!
              I actually heard them use the state of the 2020 economy against Trump during the election.
              Last edited by seanD; 05-06-2021, 12:18 PM.
              "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                Because they are among the governors who handled the Chinese coronavirus the worst in the country and would hardly care if Trump would mobilize his base against them since they are in two of the "bluest" states in the country.
                In both cases we see people that didn't follow sound medical advice - abeit not bacause of Trump. But rejecting sound medical advice is exactly the entire reason Trump's influence was so bad and so significant. He was using his position and popularity to pressure republican politician's to follow his lead in ignoring sound medical advice. Cuomo somehow was convinced nursing homes had sufficient medical capacity to handle Covid patients - not sound medical advice - and Newsome lost his backbone after at first responding well to the virus and gave into cries that were counter to sound medical advice.

                So it doesn't really serve as a counter to my point, except to say that Trump is not the only reason politicians didn't follow sound medical advice.

                But my point was never that ALL excess covid deaths were Trump's fault. My point is that Trump's actions contributed to 100's of thousands of excess Covid deaths - a large percentage of them. Your counter would only have applied if I had said Trump was the ONLY cause of excess Covid Deaths.
                Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-06-2021, 12:54 PM.
                Mockery is the argument of the mentally and/or emotionally challenged.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                  The whole "lockdown" thing reminds me of the metaphor that Leftists never met a crisis they didn't love, because it's just another excuse to take power. And in this case of lockdowns, it is a double win for them because they also manage to destroy free enterprise at the same time. Yippee!
                  The lockdowns were the only known way to significantly reduce spread. We got smarter about how to do it as time progressed. But until we had a vaccine, the only way to slow spread and keep the serious disease rate low enough from overwhelming hospitals and killing millions was to do the lockdown/mask wearing thing. I am convinced that had we not done the lockdowns the economic and sociological consequences would have been much worse. And I think India is a good example of what we would have faced without them. But we certainly can debate if those were the best choices.

                  Trying to cast them as 'Democrats trying to get control" is just false. And being careful not to cast any aspersions on you specifically, I would say this sort of rhetoric (and it comes from all over) is the sort of fearmongering, paranoid, and irresponsible partisanship we really do not need right now.
                  Last edited by oxmixmudd; 05-06-2021, 01:03 PM.
                  Mockery is the argument of the mentally and/or emotionally challenged.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                    The lockdowns were the only known way to significantly reduce spread. We got smarter about how to do it as time progressed. But until we had a vaccine, the only way to slow spread and keep the serious disease rate low enough from overwhelming hospitals and killing millions was to do the lockdown/mask wearing thing. I am convinced that had we not done the lockdowns the economic and sociological consequences would have been much worse. And I think India is a good example of what we would have faced without them. But we certainly can debate if those were the best choices.

                    Trying to cast them as 'Democrats trying to get control" is just false. And being careful not to cast any aspersions on you specifically, I would say this sort of rhetoric (and it comes from all over) is the sort of fearmongering, paranoid, and irresponsible partisanship we really do not need right now.
                    Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Some Dems got so power hungry with lockdowns the courts had to actually get involved.
                    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                      In both cases we see people that didn't follow sound medical advice - abeit not bacause of Trump. But rejecting sound medical advice is exactly the entire reason Trump's influence was so bad and so significant. He was using his position and popularity to pressure republican politician's to follow his lead in ignoring sound medical advice. Cuomo somehow was convinced nursing homes had sufficient medical capacity to handle Covid patients - not sound medical advice - and Newsome lost his backbone after at first responding well to the virus and gave into cries that were counter to sound medical advice.

                      So it doesn't really serve as a counter to my point, except to say that Trump is not the only reason politicians didn't follow sound medical advice.

                      But my point was never that ALL excess covid deaths were Trump's fault. My point is that Trump's actions contributed to 100's of thousands of excess Covid deaths - a large percentage of them. Your counter would only have applied if I had said Trump was the ONLY cause of excess Covid Deaths.
                      FWIU, one of the very reasons that Cuomo was such a darling of the left was that he followed what the doctors were saying, unlike OMB. Much the same with Newsome. Both repeatedly issuing strict lockdowns (and in both cases ignoring it themselves).

                      Also, in Trump's case (and to a much lesser degree the governors), he had to walk a razor's edge between what's best medically and what's best economically as well. If we sent our economy spiraling into another Great Depression the cost both financially as well as the human toll would be stupendous. That's an actual risk if we follow the science 100%. And it is a position to be stuck in that I'd wish on nobody.


                      Overall, I believe my point is that you are too eager to place all the blame on Trump for things he often had no control or responsibility. Now, please, allow me a chance to support my conclusion before you start responding

                      For instance, after BtC informed you that it is the governors who are in charge of many of the things you had found fault over, you immediately shifted to find another way to blame Trump. That the governors were following the lead of Trump - including those who don't like him because he fears their base. This is why I pointed out that the governors of two of our largest states, and who have absolutely nothing to fear from Trump supporters (being in states that are nearly as blue as you can get), have well-known terrible records that you just can't blame Trump for.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by seanD View Post
                        Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Some Dems got so power hungry with lockdowns the courts had to actually get involved.
                        And in more than a few instances it has been courts and jurists with reputations for being liberal who have told these governors that they have overstepped their bounds -- and not by just a little bit.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                          The whole "lockdown" thing reminds me of the metaphor that Leftists never met a crisis they didn't love, because it's just another excuse to take power. And in this case of lockdowns, it is a double win for them because they also manage to destroy free enterprise at the same time. Yippee!
                          Never mind the fact that when everything is taken into consideration, it's doubtful that any of the government's attempts to stop the China flu had any measurable impact on it at all while wrecking the lives and livelihoods of millions of Americans in the process.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                            The lockdowns were the only known way to significantly reduce spread.
                            I disagree. I think it was part knee-jerk panic, combined with Left-leaners getting on a control kick (notice it was mostly Democrat governors that were the biggest lockdown proponents).

                            We got smarter about how to do it as time progressed. But until we had a vaccine, the only way to slow spread and keep the serious disease rate low enough from overwhelming hospitals and killing millions was to do the lockdown/mask wearing thing. I am convinced that had we not done the lockdowns the economic and sociological consequences would have been much worse. And I think India is a good example of what we would have faced without them. But we certainly can debate if those were the best choices.
                            Masks, hand sanitizer, proper indoor ventilation, just enhanced hygiene would have been sufficient, IMO.

                            Trying to cast them as 'Democrats trying to get control" is just false.
                            Then how do you explain the disparity between political parties and the lockdowns?

                            And being careful not to cast any aspersions on you specifically, I would say this sort of rhetoric (and it comes from all over) is the sort of fearmongering, paranoid, and irresponsible partisanship we really do not need right now.
                            I appreciate your newfound diplomacy. Partisanship is going to happen no matter what. Honestly, it seems to me that I always hear calls for cooperation and bipartisanship whenever Democrats control Washington. When they are out of power, it seems like all-out political war to me.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                              Then how do you explain the disparity between political parties and the lockdowns?
                              To be honest. However it started out, it became pure politics. The lockdown and even preventative measures became a political football. If trump was for something, democrats would take the polar opposite position. If the democrats were for something, republicans would take the polar opposite position.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Ronson View Post
                                I appreciate your newfound diplomacy. Partisanship is going to happen no matter what. Honestly, it seems to me that I always hear calls for cooperation and bipartisanship whenever Democrats control Washington. When they are out of power, it seems like all-out political war to me.
                                It's the opposite. When Democrats are out of power, they always talk about "compromise" and "reaching across the aisle" (and a lot of Republicans traditionally go along with it). When they're in power, their tune suddenly becomes, "We won, so sit down and shut up."
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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