Originally posted by Ronson
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Top teachers union lobbied CDC on school reopening
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
When I was a kid, I worked for Ford, and was a member of UAW 425 --- we went on strike (if you remember, the various manufacturers took turns -- this year it was Ford's turn to strike) just before Christmas, and it was SO costly to my family, and during that (I think it was like 6 or 7 weeks) it wiped out what little savings I had, destroyed my credit, hurt my family.... And the "benefits" that we got that were 'better' were so minimal it was sickening. I think somebody did a study on how long it takes the "new benefits" to offset the losses during a strike. What they don't factor in is how long it takes to build up your credit again, and to replenish your savings...
I hated the union -- standing out there "on picket duty" for "strike pay" of something like $140 a week. And if the union didn't call a strike in a given year, they'd throw a big Christmas party with open bars where everybody would get drunk and do stupid stuff.
OK, so --- how bout collective bargaining in a public sector job? Like the police coming down with "the Blue Flu" or something?
(and, as a side -- I WAS A LATHER for a short time in college - a local machine shop where they really wanted me to take on an apprenticeship! I actually enjoyed running a lathe, but it seemed like the same thing over and over and over --- and eventually, all that was replaced in that machine shop with CNC stuff)
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Originally posted by Ronson View Post
I meant, depending on laws to protect unions.
Collective bargaining for better wages and conditions, and the ability to call a strike and picket.
I hated the union -- standing out there "on picket duty" for "strike pay" of something like $140 a week. And if the union didn't call a strike in a given year, they'd throw a big Christmas party with open bars where everybody would get drunk and do stupid stuff.
I only belonged to a union for a short time when I first started working (in construction, I was in a lathing union). I hated the union and the occupation. Left and never went back to either.
(and, as a side -- I WAS A LATHER for a short time in college - a local machine shop where they really wanted me to take on an apprenticeship! I actually enjoyed running a lathe, but it seemed like the same thing over and over and over --- and eventually, all that was replaced in that machine shop with CNC stuff)
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
Let's go with that --- what protections do unskilled workers need today that can be provided by unions but are not already provided by labor laws?
Collective bargaining for better wages and conditions, and the ability to call a strike and picket. I only belonged to a union for a short time when I first started working (in construction, I was in a lathing union). I hated the union and the occupation. Left and never went back to either.
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Originally posted by Ronson View Post
Depending on laws to protect them, unions are helpful for unskilled workers. Teachers and police don't qualify.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
Cmon, man... Putting "labor unions" in charge of our Military --- what could POSSIBLY go wrong?Last edited by CivilDiscourse; 05-04-2021, 10:05 AM.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAnd a number of big name pro-union folks from the first half of the 20th cent. explicitly warned against allowing government employees to unionize.
Remember how back in the 70s there was talk of unionizing the military? I think the Dutch had just done it and some here wanted to emulate them. Can you imagine a unionized military during a time of war?
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
See, I KNOW you know the difference, but I think that's what a lot of people don't get ---- that the PUBLIC sector unions (police, fire, teachers) by their very nature, pit the employees (especially the bad ones) against the entities that pay their salaries.
Unions represent our police, fire and teachers (among others) against WE THE PEOPLE.
I'm not nearly concerned about a private company that has to battle unions -- that's their problem. Public sector unions are OUR problem.
And that's one of the major factors, I think, which H_A simply cannot grasp in her claim that there should be a National Police Unions for ALL police departments.
Remember how back in the 70s there was talk of unionizing the military? I think the Dutch had just done it and some here wanted to emulate them. Can you imagine a unionized military during a time of war?
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Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
Indeed I did.
Unions represent our police, fire and teachers (among others) against WE THE PEOPLE.
I'm not nearly concerned about a private company that has to battle unions -- that's their problem. Public sector unions are OUR problem.
And that's one of the major factors, I think, which H_A simply cannot grasp in her claim that there should be a National Police Unions for ALL police departments.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostI'm sure that their are incidences where they could serve a purpose but there is a reason that membership in the public sector has been plummeting for decades.
When I was in my 20s everyone of my friends who worked at Lockheed belonged to the union and were strong supporters. They stood on picket lines, they made life hard for "scabs" and other non-union employees. But over the years every single one dropped their membership until none belonged to the union by 2000.
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Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
I don't think they are entirely relegated to the past. See my post right above your reply.
When I was in my 20s everyone of my friends who worked at Lockheed belonged to the union and were strong supporters. They stood on picket lines, they made life hard for "scabs" and other non-union employees. But over the years every single one dropped their membership until none belonged to the union by 2000.
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Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View PostIn general, unions work best when there is a power imbalance between employees and employer due to lopsided supply/demand of workers.
One on one, an employer holds the cards. If you don't want to accept the pay/benefits they offer you, they can find 100 other people who will. A union works to shift that power dynamic by organizing the workers into one negotiating unit. Sure, they might find 100 other people for one person, but they can't replace their entire work-force, at least not easily or efficiently.
The thing is, once you reach a point where the supply/demand is more balanced, then the need for the union to equalize the power is largely negated. After all, if your skill-set is rare enough, then the cost of finding/interviewing/hiring a replacement is high enough to make negotiations more fair
I'll be honest, I don't know much about law enforcement hiring, so I have no idea where along the spectrum law enforcement fall.
Before labor laws and OSHA and other protections, there needed to be some protection for the workers due to health and safety and other abuses.
On the other hand, is the public sector union -- the ones I hate. They pit the "employees" NOT against the "employer", but against the TAX PAYER.
That's the key.
The union gets filthy rich collecting the dues of its members, and representing them AGAINST (I'm not shouting ) the city government, the people who need police protection, the homes that need fire protection, etc.
And the members know that they union will be there to protect them if they screw up, or if they're just bad actors.
And, in the case of so many public sector unions - the union members who retire make out like bandits with bloated pension or retirement (as early as 55) packages that the city/municipality has to pay in addition to the active duty police, fire, paramedics, etc.
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostI think that for the most part unions are a relic of the past. They served a valuable purpose in their time, kind of like a buggy whip.
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