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  • CivilDiscourse
    replied
    Originally posted by MaxVel View Post

    Perhaps you ought to consider just how things got to that place. As an outside observer, it's not all on one side - people got (and are still) that upset because of a whole host of things that have made them lose trust in various institutions. Something as seemingly trivial as the fish feeding 'scandal' (repeated mutliple times over different issues since then) made many lose trust in the media. Then you've got dangerous demagogues like Maxine Waters et al, et al, allowed to run around inciting violence; Democrat politicians paying bail for rioters, etc etc. Dubious court decisions and dodgy jurors; social media trying to control the narrative to support their political views (a sitting President banned from Twitter and no-one thinks that's dangerous or going to make his supporters more extreme??). People being told to just shut up about their doubts and questions, much much more

    It's far from all one one side making things more heated and more divisive. You have such an obsession with all things Trump that you either don't see, or ignore and excuse the other side of the problem.

    As I said years ago, Trump is more of a symptom of problems than a cause of problems. And AFAICT none of the underlying issues that led to trump being elected by the conservative base have been addressed in any significant way. Instead, they've had four years+ of being demonised, ignored, talked over, and told to shut up. No real attempt by the other side of the political aisle to understand their thinking, culture, or values. Sorry to say Ox, but you haven't yet made real progress in doing that either.

    So there's a large group of Americans out there who are being marginalised and pushed to be more extreme. The Democrats are operating on a 'winner takes all' approach, which means the losers are going to get more disenchanted with the system, more desperate, and more extreme. Since 'Trump didn't get it done' - that is, deal with some of the real entrenched corruption in the system, and push back or slow down some of the radical social change that people don't want, people are going to look for someone or some approach that does. And that person or that approach is going to make a second term of Trump look like a far better choice.


    Take an issue like LGBT rights. It's a significant social change. People who don't agree (for whatever reasons), or who feel it's going too far, aren't listened to, or addressed with sober discussion and counter-argument that could change their mind. They're screamed at, deplatformed, demonised and so on. Change is pushed even harder and faster in response to any opposition. That sends the message that 'We're going to do what we want, no matter what you think or feel. We have decided what's best for society, and if you want to question, consider, or push back, then you're not part of society anymore. You're evil.' And then liberals act surprised when people don't trust them, don't believe them, and don't want to support any of the institutions they use to push their agendas. It's anti-democratic and divisive. It doesn't try to persuade people to freely change their views, it coerces them.

    Ox, you've done this kind of thing here on TWeb. Remember the Arbery thread? You refused to discuss possibilities reasonably with people who (certainly on my part) just wanted to dig down and get all the facts of the matter. You jumped in early on implying people were racist for merely wanting to know more about what actually happened, and finished with accusing fellow Christians of speaking on behalf of demons. You left no possibility for someone to come to a free choice of their own that Arbery was the victim of a racist attack. No wonder people didn't. Let's say that your view on that topic was correct. You successfully alienated people who you might have been able to persuade, and made yourself that much less credible on future topics.

    If you find the current state of American political life scary (and I think you should) please consider your part in it.
    No, he does not care to talk about how the normalization of political violence over the preceeding 4 years, and especially during the summer leading up to the election could have possibly lead people into thinking political violence was acceptable on Jan 6th, or that the actual punishment for doing so would be light. It's not like political violence had been rationalized, minimized, downplayed, minimized, or justified all summer...

    Leave a comment:


  • MaxVel
    replied
    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

    Again, the idea that anyone can dismiss or try to play down what happened Jan 6 is truly beyond me. And it is very, very scary to note that American Citizens would be willing to excuse such a desecration of their government, such an assault on the safety of our elected officials en masse, and a president who at the very least enjoyed it and was thankful to those that did it.
    Perhaps you ought to consider just how things got to that place. As an outside observer, it's not all on one side - people got (and are still) that upset because of a whole host of things that have made them lose trust in various institutions. Something as seemingly trivial as the fish feeding 'scandal' (repeated mutliple times over different issues since then) made many lose trust in the media. Then you've got dangerous demagogues like Maxine Waters et al, et al, allowed to run around inciting violence; Democrat politicians paying bail for rioters, etc etc. Dubious court decisions and dodgy jurors; social media trying to control the narrative to support their political views (a sitting President banned from Twitter and no-one thinks that's dangerous or going to make his supporters more extreme??). People being told to just shut up about their doubts and questions, much much more

    It's far from all one one side making things more heated and more divisive. You have such an obsession with all things Trump that you either don't see, or ignore and excuse the other side of the problem.

    As I said years ago, Trump is more of a symptom of problems than a cause of problems. And AFAICT none of the underlying issues that led to trump being elected by the conservative base have been addressed in any significant way. Instead, they've had four years+ of being demonised, ignored, talked over, and told to shut up. No real attempt by the other side of the political aisle to understand their thinking, culture, or values. Sorry to say Ox, but you haven't yet made real progress in doing that either.

    So there's a large group of Americans out there who are being marginalised and pushed to be more extreme. The Democrats are operating on a 'winner takes all' approach, which means the losers are going to get more disenchanted with the system, more desperate, and more extreme. Since 'Trump didn't get it done' - that is, deal with some of the real entrenched corruption in the system, and push back or slow down some of the radical social change that people don't want, people are going to look for someone or some approach that does. And that person or that approach is going to make a second term of Trump look like a far better choice.


    Take an issue like LGBT rights. It's a significant social change. People who don't agree (for whatever reasons), or who feel it's going too far, aren't listened to, or addressed with sober discussion and counter-argument that could change their mind. They're screamed at, deplatformed, demonised and so on. Change is pushed even harder and faster in response to any opposition. That sends the message that 'We're going to do what we want, no matter what you think or feel. We have decided what's best for society, and if you want to question, consider, or push back, then you're not part of society anymore. You're evil.' And then liberals act surprised when people don't trust them, don't believe them, and don't want to support any of the institutions they use to push their agendas. It's anti-democratic and divisive. It doesn't try to persuade people to freely change their views, it coerces them.

    Ox, you've done this kind of thing here on TWeb. Remember the Arbery thread? You refused to discuss possibilities reasonably with people who (certainly on my part) just wanted to dig down and get all the facts of the matter. You jumped in early on implying people were racist for merely wanting to know more about what actually happened, and finished with accusing fellow Christians of speaking on behalf of demons. You left no possibility for someone to come to a free choice of their own that Arbery was the victim of a racist attack. No wonder people didn't. Let's say that your view on that topic was correct. You successfully alienated people who you might have been able to persuade, and made yourself that much less credible on future topics.

    If you find the current state of American political life scary (and I think you should) please consider your part in it.

    Leave a comment:


  • RumTumTugger
    replied
    Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    It was liberals seeing the mask come so fully off the US Republican base that was so enlightening.
    actually it was the liberals Mask coming off Starlight not the other way around.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

    I didn't see anyone make the same point about the "greatest attack since the Civil War" in this thread, but I will point out I was mostly just poking fun at the fact I had posted it almost immediately before you did.


    I didn't even look to see that your post was literally directly above mine.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cerebrum123
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Aside from "great minds" and all that, I think you'll find a number of similar posts in various threads including this one.
    I didn't see anyone make the same point about the "greatest attack since the Civil War" in this thread, but I will point out I was mostly just poking fun at the fact I had posted it almost immediately before you did.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

    Wish I had thought of that, oh wait!
    Aside from "great minds" and all that, I think you'll find a number of similar posts in various threads including this one.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

    If you count all pro-trump protests of 3+ people in any size town, the vast majority have been peaceful.
    And the ONLY person who died as a direct result of the riot itself was an unarmed female protester shot by a Capitol Police Officer (who has yet to be identified).

    Leave a comment:


  • CivilDiscourse
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    If you look at the Capitol Incident, and consider the VAST number of people who did NOT act up - it was absolutely a "mostly peaceful protest".
    If you count all pro-trump protests of 3+ people in any size town, the vast majority have been peaceful.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

    At least to the same degree that we saw being done last summer
    If you look at the Capitol Incident, and consider the VAST number of people who did NOT act up - it was absolutely a "mostly peaceful protest".

    Leave a comment:


  • Cerebrum123
    replied
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    And the worst incident since the Civil War. Far worse, than say, several presidents being assassinated since then because old Joe says so.
    Wish I had thought of that, oh wait!

    Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post

    Somehow one of the "most dangerous" attacks on our country "since the civil war" resulted in only a few people dying and some property damage and lasted less than a day. Unlike the "mostly peaceful protests" that have resulted in millions to billions of dollars in damage, dozens of deaths, and lasted months.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

    Anyone not insisting on calling it a Deadly Armed Insurrection.
    And the worst incident since the Civil War. Far worse, than say, several presidents being assassinated since then because old Joe says so.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cerebrum123
    replied
    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post

    Billions in damages ... oh, wait, that's Portland.

    Month long occupation ... er, sorry, Portland again.

    Dozens dead ... oops, Portland.



    Dang, which one was the Capitol one? Oh yeah, the one with a trigger happy cop shooting a girl for looking in a window, Pelosi lost her laptop and the DC government is currently carrying on out massive retaliatory civil rights violations...
    Somehow one of the "most dangerous" attacks on our country "since the civil war" resulted in only a few people dying and some property damage and lasted less than a day. Unlike the "mostly peaceful protests" that have resulted in millions to billions of dollars in damage, dozens of deaths, and lasted months.

    Leave a comment:


  • CivilDiscourse
    replied
    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

    Anyone not insisting on calling it a Deadly Armed Insurrection.
    So, all major news organizations?

    Leave a comment:


  • Teallaura
    replied
    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post

    Anyone not insisting on calling it a Deadly Armed Insurrection.
    Billions in damages ... oh, wait, that's Portland.

    Month long occupation ... er, sorry, Portland again.

    Dozens dead ... oops, Portland.



    Dang, which one was the Capitol one? Oh yeah, the one with a trigger happy cop shooting a girl for looking in a window, Pelosi lost her laptop and the DC government is currently carrying on out massive retaliatory civil rights violations...

    Leave a comment:


  • NorrinRadd
    replied
    Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

    Who here has played down the Jan 6th Riot?
    Anyone not insisting on calling it a Deadly Armed Insurrection.

    Leave a comment:

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