Example of hidden systemic racism

[oxmixmudd]

This article caught my eye this morning. It's a fairly objective example of how racist assumptions hidden away in artifacts of our culture birthed during the time of slavery or in times of explicit overt racism still are built into our culture. This example is found in medicine and the heuristics used to determine medical treatment. It turns out there are a number of equations used today by physicians that compute different results if the patient is 'black' than if they are not. In some cases it is as stark as that (black/other), in other cases not as blatant.

One case mentioned is that of a calculation of what is 'normal' lung capacity. The equation used comes from 1851 and was created by a doctor that assumed black people had smaller lungs (and which was part of a 'theory' that said on account of this deficiency, black people needed the hard labor of slavery to be healthy). That equation is still used when evaluating the results of a spirometer. Another example mentioned is the 'equation' used to determine if a vaginal birth can be recommended for a woman. For black women, caesarian ends up being recommended more often, with the attendant longer recovery and risk of infection. I'll mention one more, but leave the rest to the reader to learn reading the article. It has to do with the myth that black people have more sensitive nerve endings, which reduces the likelihood of prescribing medication for pain relief.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/25/healt...sed/index.html

Now one might ask - 'what if these are real differences?'. For example, Sickle Cell disease is in fact a hereditary disease that does not affect people of European descent and is more likely in people of African descent. The simple fact is most of the issues discussed are not in fact 'real'. They are not actually artifacts of African descent. Secondarily, there is the simple fact that hereditary descent is not even remotely well determined by skin color. Tiger Woods is a good example that most people consider 'black', but his descent is actually a mix of "Caucasian, Black, American Indian and Asian ancestries".

[seanD]

Yet instead you rail incessantly against Christian evangelism and the church for the history of racism when all this racist stuff (some of the most heinous things against blacks) was propagated by the scientific community.

[oxmixmudd]

Yet instead you rail incessantly against Christian evangelism and the church for the history of racism when all this racist stuff (some of the most heinous things against blacks) was propagated by the scientific community.

That is completely off the wall. First I don't rail against Christian Evangelism. I do take exception with some elements of secular conservative thought that has been foisted as somehow sourced in Christian faith by American Christian Evangelicalism - entirely it's own thing. But perhaps you don't understand the difference. Second it's false in terms of the 'primary' source of racism - racism by white people to others is not primarily sourced in science but in the innate sense of the superiority of European culture over all others (made possible by their superior military might and weapons). And 'the most heinous thing propagated against blacks' was slavery itself, which lasted over 200 years and involved all aspects of European and American society - church, government, and intrinsic culture.

However, it is in fact notable that a British Christian - Wilberforce - worked tirelessly against the slave trade - as did Christians in the Americas, though not those that eventually formed the SBC. So when you factor in the SBC forming over the right to keep and own slaves, Christians have, and continue to, find themselves on both sides of this issue, both arguing for ideas and policies that oppress black people, and arguing for ideas and policies that will make them equal in our society to the white population.

[Ronson]

But your examples have to do with the modern medicine. The last I heard, medicine is not any part of the US government - it is in the field of science.

Now, if modern science is using antiquated measurements and racial profiling, then it is faulty and needs to be addressed by those professionals.

(of course, this assumes any of it is true. I do not click on CNN links if at all avoidable)

[seanD]

That is completely off the wall. First I don't rail against Christian Evangelism. I do take exception with some elements of secular conservative thought that has been foisted as somehow sourced in Christian faith by American Christian Evangelicalism - entirely it's own thing. But perhaps you don't understand the difference. Second it's false in terms of the 'primary' source of racism - racism by white people to others is not primarily sourced in science but in the innate sense of the superiority of European culture over all others (made possible by their superior military might and weapons). And 'the most heinous thing propagated against blacks' was slavery itself, which lasted over 200 years and involved all aspects of European and American society - church, government, and intrinsic culture.

However, it is in fact notable that a British Christian - Wilberforce - worked tirelessly against the slave trade - as did Christians in the Americas, though not those that eventually formed the SBC. So when you factor in the SBC forming over the right to keep and own slaves, Christians have, and continue to, find themselves on both sides of this issue, both arguing for ideas and policies that oppress black people, and arguing for ideas and policies that will make them equal in our society to the white population.

You have numerous posts railing against Christian evangelism and the historical church as the perpetrators of racism in our culture, Ox.

And you linked to a freaking article explaining how the scientific community perpetuates racial myths and stereotypes in their medical analyses.

[oxmixmudd]

But your examples have to do with the modern medicine. The last I heard, medicine is not any part of the US government - it is in the field of science.

Now, if modern science is using antiquated measurements and racial profiling, then it is faulty and needs to be addressed by those professionals.

(of course, this assumes any of it is true. I do not click on CNN links if at all avoidable)

systemic racism need not be limited to government. Or maybe you'd prefer structural racism or covert racism of any of a handful of words that refer to various aspects of our society where racism is imbedded into how it works. So if I used too broad a definition for 'systemic racism', please forgive any lack of precision.

My point was that this is an objective example of how racism is imbedded into our culture, of how the legacy of slavery, the consequences of slavery and the ideas that drove it, continue to make themselves felt today, and how that can and does affect the black population in a negative and oppressive way.

[oxmixmudd]

You have numerous posts railing against Christian evangelism and the historical church as the perpetrators of racism in our culture, Ox.

I have numerous posts where I have pointed out how racism was a part of church culture and how it was propagated by people that at the least claimed to be Christian.

Now answer this - would you not rail against church picnics that were centered around the event of hanging a negro accused of one crime or another? Or - are you of a mind such realities should be hidden away never to be discussed, never to be reminders of how easy it is for us to become accustomed to injustice even while claiming to follow Christ?

And you linked to a freaking article explaining how the scientific community perpetuates racial myths and stereotypes in their medical analyses.

I linked to an article that shows how the ideas that justified slavery became codified into medical procedures and were never corrected, still exerting negative influence on the black community today.
These things didn't come from 'science' seanD, they came from racist people integrating their biases and prejudices into their research in ways that a proper application of the scientific method would have prevented.

What is sad is that over time these were not objected to and corrected for before now.

One valid question would be - why was this not corrected until now?

Another is why are you trying to cast shade on the messenger rather than dealing with the implications WRT the continued and hidden effects of racism in our society.

[seanD]

I have numerous posts where I have pointed out how racism was a part of church culture and how it was propagated by people that at the least claimed to be Christian.

Now answer this - would you not rail against church picnics that were centered around the event of hanging a negro accused of one crime or another? Or - are you of a mind such realities should be hidden away never to be discussed, never to be reminders of how easy it is for us to become accustomed to injustice even while claiming to follow Christ?



I linked to an article that shows how the ideas that justified slavery became codified into medical procedures and were never corrected, still exerting negative influence on the black community today.
These things didn't come from 'science' seanD, they came from racist people integrating their biases and prejudices into their research in ways that a proper application of the scientific method would have prevented.

What is sad is that over time these were not objected to and corrected for before now.

One valid question would be - why was this not corrected until now?

Another is why are you trying to cast shade on the messenger rather than dealing with the implications WRT the continued and hidden effects of racism in our society.

If the issue of racist actions in the past by the church came up, I'd discuss it, albeit in a defensive manner. I have a natural affection for the church, so that would be a natural reaction, but no, I don't believe issues like that should be "hidden away" and I'm not suggesting they should. I wouldn't bring up numerous posts about it and use it to vilify the church the way you do. I'd certainly expect that from a very outspoken anti-Christian here at tweb like Tassman or someone of his ilk though; certainly not from someone who claims they're Christian.

These racist ideas were propagated by the scientific community, Ox, and then used in their actual scientific analyses for decades. You're nick picking at semantics. You linked to an article that proves this very thing. I know it hurts your scientism sentiment to no end to admit that, but you can't deny reality when you link to a source showing this to be the case. Maybe you should have thought about that before you started this thread.

[Starlight]

I think you've got to be careful to be nuanced in your examples with regard to race-based medical decisions, because a lot of the processes doctors follow when they take race into account are there for the purposes of helping minorities. e.g. recognizing that certain medical conditions are more prevalent among certain socio-cultural / racial groups and hence prioritizing testing for those if ambiguous symptoms are present.

While I don't doubt that there are some errors in these rules that are still hanging round from ye olden days of yore that were based on inaccurate data, most of those rules will be based on modern medical data and be there to help minorities. e.g. testing for prostate cancer 10 years earlier than normal because they're an at-risk group etc.

I guess in the US where you guys often have to personally pay for your healthcare, more testing for at-risk minority groups out of an abundance of medical caution is arguably a double-edged sword for minority groups due to the financial expense, even if clearly medically warranted and beneficial.

[oxmixmudd]

If the issue of racist actions in the past by the church came up, I'd discuss it, albeit in a defensive manner. I have a natural affection for the church, so that would be a natural reaction, but no, I don't believe issues like that should be "hidden away" and I'm not suggesting they should. I wouldn't bring up numerous posts about it and use it to vilify the church the way you do. I'd certainly expect that from a very outspoken anti-Christian here at tweb like Tassman or someone of his ilk though; certainly not from someone who claims they're Christian.

You are exaggerating- significantly. At the same time, I'm not the sort to sweep under the rug sinful or outright criminal acts just because the person doing them says thay are a Christian or they are a well known Christian leader.

Nor will I excuse gross ignorance propagated under the cover of Christian faith.

These racist ideas were propagated by the scientific community, Ox, and then used in their actual scientific analyses for decades.

I had no idea how good you could be at scape goating. I suppose I should anticipate it if I bring up other objective examples of structural or systemic racism.

You're nick picking at semantics.

No, I'm not. These ideas come from the intrinsic racism of the culture from which they are derived. They were propagated and held in place by a combination of those myths continuing to be held by society ( scientists are also products of their cultures) and just the latent persistence of 'what has always been done'.

You linked to an article that proves this very thing. I know it hurts your scientism sentiment to no end to admit that, but you can't deny reality when you link to a source showing this to be the case. Maybe you should have thought about that before you started this thread.

Absurd. The myths these errors are based on would be disproven immediately when subjected to the scientific method. Again, you are scapegoating. This is not a fault of science but rather the overall racist culture the scientists worked within.

But the truly absurd is that when confronted with a clear example of how racism and the attitudes of our ancestors from 170 years ago have been perpetuated and continue to carry their oppression into the world today your focus is on denial and scape goating.

[seanD]

You are exaggerating- significantly. At the same time, I'm not the sort to sweep under the rug sinful or outright criminal acts just because the person doing them says thay are a Christian or they are a well known Christian leader.

Nor will I excuse gross ignorance propagated under the cover of Christian faith.





I had no idea how good you could be at scape goating. I suppose I should anticipate it if I bring up other objective examples of structural or systemic racism.




No, I'm not. These ideas come from the intrinsic racism of the culture from which they are derived. They were propagated and held in place by a combination of those myths continuing to be held by society ( scientists are also products of their cultures) and just the latent persistence of 'what has always been done'.



Absurd. The myths these errors are based on would be disproven immediately when subjected to the scientific method. Again, you are scapegoating. This is not a fault of science but rather the overall racist culture the scientists worked within.

But the truly absurd is that when confronted with a clear example of how racism and the attitudes of our ancestors from 170 years ago have been perpetuated and continue to carry their oppression into the world today your focus is on denial and scape goating.

You keep saying the racial myths would be disproven by the "scientific method," but it wasn't, at least not for decades. So what happened? Did the scientific community abandon the scientific method for all those decades? The myths were apparently perpetuated by the scientific method for decades, until the scientific method changed? Or is it that the scientific community evolved with the times and adapted their views and methods?

Just admit, Ox. You tried to virtue-signal your whole systemic racism spiel and ended up opening up a can of worms you didn't intend.

[oxmixmudd]

You keep saying the racial myths would be disproven by the "scientific method," but it wasn't, at least not for decades. So what happened? Did the scientific community abandon the scientific method for all those decades? The myths were apparently perpetuated by the scientific method for decades, until the scientific method changed? Or is it that the scientific community evolved with the times and adapted their views and methods?

Just admit, Ox. You tried to virtue-signal your whole systemic racism spiel and ended up opening up a can of worms you didn't intend.

No - but it is clear you have no clue what the scientific method is or the effect bias can have on research.

I know you just want to drag this down into the muck, but this is as far as I'll go on this topic with you.

[oxmixmudd]

But the truly absurd is that when confronted with a clear example of how racism and the attitudes of our ancestors from 170 years ago have been perpetuated and continue to carry their oppression into the world today your focus is on denial and scape goating.

just to recap. Here is clear, objective evidence of the legacy of slavery still affecting black people negatively today - and it can't move seanD. It is so, so sad to see how destructive to reason blind belief that is not coupled to respect for evidence and the truth can be.

[Teallaura]

But your examples have to do with the modern medicine. The last I heard, medicine is not any part of the US government - it is in the field of science.

Now, if modern science is using antiquated measurements and racial profiling, then it is faulty and needs to be addressed by those professionals.

(of course, this assumes any of it is true. I do not click on CNN links if at all avoidable)

Pretty sure none of it is - lidocaine was administered without regard to race with APPG and sometimes bicillin in the 1980s and I have never seen an earlier tx where it was withheld from a black patient for any reason other than countraindication (honestly don't recall even one of those). I've had professional occasion to research thousands of charts in most of south Alabama and I have never seen any indication of any of that nonsense. Nor did any of the TB reps I worked with ever mention that lung capacity silliness.

Some of the black DIS did suspect that whites were underreported in STD however by the 2000's no doctors were reporting in house. The stats didn't change as labs took over reporting so that while their suspicions would likely have been true as late as the seventies the underreporting had evidently ended by the nineties.

[oxmixmudd]

Pretty sure none of it is - lidocaine was administered without regard to race with APPG and sometimes bicillin in the 1980s and I have never seen an earlier tx where it was withheld from a black patient for any reason other than countraindication (honestly don't recall even one of those). I've had professional occasion to research thousands of charts in most of south Alabama and I have never seen any indication of any of that nonsense. Nor did any of the TB reps I worked with ever mention that lung capacity silliness.

Some of the black DIS did suspect that whites were underreported in STD however by the 2000's no doctors were reporting in house. The stats didn't change as labs took over reporting so that while their suspicions would likely have been true as late as the seventies the underreporting had evidently ended by the nineties.

So is it your contention that the examples mentioned in the article are lies of one form or another?