Originally posted by Roy
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
Civics 101 Guidelines
Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!
Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less
Dead end for the left
Collapse
X
-
Originally posted by Roy View PostThat bit, where Jefferson rejects the Christian God as being a fable. IfJefferson rejected the Christian God, his own God must have been something else.
Your continued mistake is in assuming that when Jefferson said 'God' he had to be referring to a specific named deity, rather than the god of natural theology, and that because the Christian God was the only one so named, Jefferson must have meant that.
What have you got that says 'God' in the DoI was a reference specifically to the (Judeo)Christian God, and not a reference to any God someone might believe in? You've produced nothing so far.
You have made implications that he may have been talking about Allah or some other "God", but you have ZERO evidence --- just your own unfounded opinion.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Roy View PostWhat have you got that says 'God' in the DoI was a reference specifically to the (Judeo)Christian God, and not a reference to any God someone might believe in? You've produced nothing so far.
On the other hand, you introduced the nutty concept that it might have even been Allah. You are the one who can't support your nutty nonsense, Roy.
Give me something -- ANYTHING -- that shows Jefferson was NOT talking about "the God of the Bible".
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Roy View PostThat's true. But the Judeo-Christian view was only the model he used to build something else from. It's not what he actually believed, it's merely a starting point he ultimately rejected as a fable.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYou have made implications that he may have been talking about Allah or some other "God", but you have ZERO evidence --- just your own unfounded opinion.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostNo, that's not the way it works -- I have produced all kinds of evidence that Jefferson was talking about the JudeoChristian God.
Whether he was a Christian in the orthodox sense, or in his own made up sense - he was clearly referring to the Christ of the "Christian Bible", and the God thereof.
On the other hand, you introduced the nutty concept that it might have even been Allah.Last edited by Roy; 05-13-2021, 05:49 AM.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
-
Originally posted by Sparko View PostDear Roy. I was wrong about every President swearing in on the bible.
Now you can admit being wrong too. It's not hard.
Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
-
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostHe only rejected parts as "fable", otherwise he would have tossed the whole thing rather than creating his annotated Bible.
Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
-
Originally posted by Roy View PostOh definitely. But the parts he rejected included the whole idea that Jesus was the son of God - which is sufficiently central to Christianity that certain people here reject people who don't believe that as Christians.
Moreover in various letters Jefferson still consistently described himself as either a Christian (although following his own unique type of Christianity) or Unitarian, as well as following various philosophies (such as Epicureanism). He also told John Adams that his role model was Joseph Priestley -- an English Unitarian and "natural philosopher" (the term for scientist back then).
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostAs Michael Corbett and Julia Mitchell Corbett put it in Politics and religion in the United States, Jefferson's beliefs were a bit of a mix of Christianity, Unitarianism, deism along with a dash of Theistic rationalism tossed in as well. While he obviously wasn't a Christian per se, his entire concept of God comes through the Judeo-Christian lens. There is absolutely no evidence to show his beliefs were influenced by Islam, Hinduism, Taoism, Shintoism, Sikhism etc. (or even that he had the faintest idea how those religions view God).
Moreover in various letters Jefferson still consistently described himself as either a Christian (although following his own unique type of Christianity) or Unitarian, as well as following various philosophies (such as Epicureanism). He also told John Adams that his role model was Joseph Priestley -- an English Unitarian and "natural philosopher" (the term for scientist back then).
I'd be extremely surprised if Jefferson was completely unaware of the existence and non-biblical nature of Islam, Hinduism and the various native American and African religions.
The problems I see are
1) when people use Jefferson's self-description as a Christian to include him in Christianity for arguing that the US was founded on Christian principles, while simultaneously excluding from Christianity others who self-describe as Christians for reasons that would also apply to Jefferson;
2) using Jefferson's self-description as evidence he must have been talking only about the Christian (or JudeoChristian) God in the DoI (and using that to impose Christianity on non-Christians).Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
-
Originally posted by Roy View PostJefferson did describe himself as a Christian, or more accurately as a Christian deist - but in the context of someone who followed Jesus' teachings (effectively a small 'c' christian) rather than a believer in Jesus's divinity.
I'd be extremely surprised if Jefferson was completely unaware of the existence and non-biblical nature of Islam, Hinduism and the various native American and African religions.
The problems I see are
1) when people use Jefferson's self-description as a Christian to include him in Christianity for arguing that the US was founded on Christian principles, while simultaneously excluding from Christianity others who self-describe as Christians for reasons that would also apply to Jefferson;
2) using Jefferson's self-description as evidence he must have been talking only about the Christian (or JudeoChristian) God in the DoI (and using that to impose Christianity on non-Christians).
And back then you didn't have significant populations of them living in the colonial Americas. There could well have been entire colonies that contained neither. So there would not be any possibility of becoming familiar through exposure that we have today.
And as I previously pointed out
There were no folks like Joseph Campbell or Huston Smith to guide a westerner through what Hindus (often called "Hindoos" back then), or Taoists, Sikhs, Baha'ís, Shintoists, Buddhists and even Muslims thought, so whenever someone in the west referenced God it was going to be at the very least in the Judeo-Christian framework.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
-
Originally posted by Roy View PostYou haven't even understood what I'm saying, let alone shown I'm wrong.Originally posted by Roy View PostYou don't understand what I'm saying, CP. Your responses have been so far off the mark I'm not sure you're even reading my posts.
I think the problem is that you don't know what you're saying -- you made an ignorant claim, can't back it up, and don't know how to get out of it.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
Comment
-
Originally posted by Roy View PostJefferson did describe himself as a Christian, or more accurately as a Christian deist - but in the context of someone who followed Jesus' teachings (effectively a small 'c' christian) rather than a believer in Jesus's divinity.
I'd be extremely surprised if Jefferson was completely unaware of the existence and non-biblical nature of Islam, Hinduism and the various native American and African religions.
The problems I see are
1) when people use Jefferson's self-description as a Christian to include him in Christianity for arguing that the US was founded on Christian principles, while simultaneously excluding from Christianity others who self-describe as Christians for reasons that would also apply to Jefferson;
2) using Jefferson's self-description as evidence he must have been talking only about the Christian (or JudeoChristian) God in the DoI (and using that to impose Christianity on non-Christians).
He was talking about the God of the Bible - the Christian Bible - regardless of how he connected that God with Christ or not.
The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
Comment
Related Threads
Collapse
Topics | Statistics | Last Post | ||
---|---|---|---|---|
Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
|
16 responses
136 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by One Bad Pig
Today, 11:55 AM
|
||
Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
|
53 responses
354 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by Mountain Man
Today, 11:32 AM
|
||
Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
|
25 responses
112 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by rogue06
Today, 08:36 AM
|
||
Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
|
33 responses
197 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by Roy
Today, 07:43 AM
|
||
Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
|
84 responses
361 views
0 likes
|
Last Post
by JimL
Today, 11:08 AM
|
Comment