Dead end for the left

[Roy]

Every President has been sworn in on a Christian bible, and every session of Congress opened with a prayer by Christian Chaplains.

Every time I see something like this and, being skeptical, discover on checking that it is wrong, my opinion of the knowledge and abilities of the conservative Christians here drops another notch. Y'all know a lot less than you think you do, and your comments on the founding and of the US are consequently not worth much at all.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_office_of_the_president_of_the_United_States

Theodore Roosevelt did not use the Bible when taking the oath in 1901, nor did John Quincy Adams, who swore on a book of law, with the intention that he was swearing on the constitution.

© Copyright Original Source

[Cow Poke]

Jefferson did not believe in the Christian God. You were wrong. Your attempt to switch from "the Christian God" to "the Christian God (or something pretty close to the same idea)" is a blatant goalpost move to avoid admitting you were wrong.
They certainly were considering concepts of God other than the Christian one, including but not limited to their own deist view. They were certainly aware of pagan and Moslem religions. Your attempt to avoid admitting your own error by insisting I admit to your strawman is unworthy of respect.

The problem is that Jefferson's beliefs obviously shifted over time. So one would need to know what Jefferson believed when he was involved in the DoI.

I keep referring to the "JudeoChristian" God, because I'm aware that Jefferson's claim to be "a Christian" were different than what we think of "a Christian" today.

Jefferson's Religious Beliefs | Thomas Jefferson's Monticello

Jefferson was deeply committed to core beliefs - for example, the existence of a benevolent and just God. Yet, as with any human, some of Jefferson’s beliefs shifted over time and were marked by uncertainty, and he accepted that some of his less central beliefs might be wrong; e.g. his belief that everything in the universe had a wholly material existence rather than there being both material and spiritual worlds. Jefferson insisted that such matters of dogma were not critical; telling one correspondent that on these “I … reposed my head on that pillow of ignorance which a benevolent creator has made so soft for us, knowing how much we should be forced to use it.”3

Care must also be taken in evaluating Jefferson’s statements on religion, both because he often defined terms in a rather idiosyncratic manner, and because many comments with literal religious significance must be understood in the context of social convention as much as theology (e.g. telling a bereaved spouse that he/she might meet the departed in an afterlife may evidence empathy as much as theology). Still, much can be said about Jefferson’s religion.

Jefferson was a devout theist, believing in a benevolent creator God to whom humans owed praise. In an early political text, he wrote that “The god who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time;…”4 He often referred to his or “our” God but did so in the language of an eighteenth century natural philosophy: “our creator,” the “Infinite Power, which rules the destinies of the universe,” “overruling providence,” “benevolent governor,” etc. In 1823, he wrote to John Adams referring to “the God whom you and I acknowledge and adore” while denouncing atheism.5

He is most certainly not speaking of Allah.

[Sparko]

Jefferson did not believe in the Christian God. You were wrong. Your attempt to switch from "the Christian God" to "the Christian God (or something pretty close to the same idea)" is a blatant goalpost move to avoid admitting you were wrong.
They certainly were considering concepts of God other than the Christian one, including but not limited to their own deist view. They were certainly aware of pagan and Moslem religions. Your attempt to avoid admitting your own error by insisting I admit to your strawman is unworthy of respect.

You are wrong. Your continual refusal to admit it is just sad. I already showed you that Jefferson considered himself a Christian.

[Cow Poke]

Roy, the vast majority of the inhabitants of the US at the time "Christian" as opposed to pagan or Muslim or any other religion.

So, unless Jefferson was trying to pull a fast one on the people, when he talked about the Creator, the Supreme Judge of the World --- he knew that the VAST majority of the people would understand he was talking about the God of the Bible.

So, unless you can prove there's some secret agenda we don't know --- that Jefferson was talking about Allah or Krishna or whoever.... name that God.

Stop with the nutty dancing around it, and tell us --- if Jefferson wasn't referring to the God of the Bible, then to whom was he referring?

[Roy]

At this point I'll also note that the argument (which I don't think you're making) that America was founded as a Christian nation is also erroneous.

Someone did make that argument:

How is it moral to force Christian prayers on a diverse school population?

Were the United States of America founded on Christian values and principles? If you want to live in America then you should abide by these?

That's what I originally objected to. It's nice to be vindicated.

[Roy]

You are wrong. Your continual refusal to admit it is just sad.

I don't think I'm wrong, no there's nothing to admit.

Meanwhile, you are indisputably wrong about all presidents being sworn in on Christian bibles, yet there's nary a peep from you.[/quote]

... about I already showed you that Jefferson considered himself a Christian.

Yes, he did - in the sense that he considered Jesus a great moral teacher. That's not the same as believing in the Christian God (which he didn't), and definitely doesn't fit your stated definition of who is a Christian (some-one who thinks Jesus was God).

You're arguing that Jefferson was a Christian solely to shore up your false claim that "They were all Christians, living in a Christian society. There was no need to spell it out. It was their "default" - to them there was only one God.," and using whatever you can think of regardless of accuracy or consistency.

[Roy]

Roy, the vast majority of the inhabitants of the US at the time "Christian" as opposed to pagan or Muslim or any other religion.

So, unless Jefferson was trying to pull a fast one on the people, when he talked about the Creator, the Supreme Judge of the World --- he knew that the VAST majority of the people would understand he was talking about the God of the Bible.

So, unless you can prove there's some secret agenda we don't know --- that Jefferson was talking about Allah or Krishna or whoever.... name that God.

Stop with the nutty dancing around it, and tell us --- if Jefferson wasn't referring to the God of the Bible, then to whom was he referring?

I'm not dancing around at all. Jefferson was a deist. He believed in a non-interventionist creator God. As Sparko cited:

In summary, then, Jefferson was a deist because he believed in one God, in divine providence, in the divine moral law, and in rewards and punishments after death; but did not believe in supernatural revelation. He was a Christian deist because he saw Christianity as the highest expression of natural religion and Jesus as an incomparably great moral teacher. He was not an orthodox Christian because he rejected, among other things, the doctrines that Jesus was the promised Messiah and the incarnate Son of God.

When Jefferson and co wrote about 'God' in the DoI, they were using the same technique you use when you refer to "The JudeoChristian God", but more widely to include not just Judaic and Christian views of God but also deist views as well, and probably others too.

[Cow Poke]

IWhen Jefferson and co wrote about 'God' in the DoI, they were using the same technique you use when you refer to "The JudeoChristian God", but more widely to include not just Judaic and Christian views of God but also deist views as well, and probably others too.

You're just wrong, Roy. Nobody at the time doubted that Jefferson was referring to the JudeoChristian God of the Bible.

To add "and probably others too" shows you're just spewing forth ignorance.

[Cow Poke]

....They certainly were considering concepts of God other than the Christian one, including but not limited to their own deist view. They were certainly aware of pagan and Moslem religions. Your attempt to avoid admitting your own error by insisting I admit to your strawman is unworthy of respect.

No doubt we would consider Jefferson an unorthodox Christian at best, but there's no doubt that the God to whom He referred was the God of the Bible.

Was Thomas Jefferson a Christian?

Jefferson was very convinced that his commitment to the moral system of Jesus of Nazareth made him a Christian. He wrote in 1816 that “I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.” He believed that only “true” Christians, like himself, would get to enter the kingdom of God.[8]

Where do we learn about Jesus of Nazareth? The Bible. The Christian Bible.

So, show me, Roy, where Jefferson ever referred to Islam, or any other religion or religious leader other than the religion of the Bible, and the God thereof.

No more speculation or woulda shoulda coulda -- facts.


8 Fea, 206. Jefferson to Charles Thomson, January 9, 1816; Jefferson to Salma Hale, July 26, 1818; Jefferson, “Syllabus of an Estimate of the Merit of the Doctrines of Jesus, Compared with Those of Others,” April 23, 1803. Jefferson to Benjamin Waterhouse, June 26, 1822; Jefferson to Waterhouse, October 15, 1822.

[Cow Poke]

You're arguing that Jefferson was a Christian solely to shore up your false claim that "They were all Christians, living in a Christian society. There was no need to spell it out. It was their "default" - to them there was only one God.," and using whatever you can think of regardless of accuracy or consistency.

So, realizing you'd poopoo on any conservative or Christian site commenting on Jefferson, I thought I'd ask the humanists...
Now, mind you, this is not "gospel" - it's their own spin, but...

When Jefferson ran for president against John Adams in 1800, Adams’ Federalist allies distorted Jefferson’s defense of freedom of religion to portray him as an enemy of God. Alexander Hamilton called Jefferson “an Atheist in Religion and a Fanatic in politics.” William Linn, a New York minister, claimed that voting for him constituted “a rebellion against God.” Yale President Timothy Dwight warned Americans that if they elected Jefferson they would “see the Bible cast into a bonfire…and our children united in chanting mockeries against God.”

Despite all that, Jefferson won the election.

But the various lies about his religious beliefs angered him and hardened his antipathy to the clergy, who he described in Latin as “genus irritable vatum”—irritable tribe of priests—and in English as “soothsayers and necromancers.”

The nasty campaign of 1800 rendered Jefferson reticent about making public statements on religion. But he remained fascinated with the topic and continued to comment on religion in letters to trusted friends. Those comments are so voluminous and so varied that, for two centuries, both Christians and secularists have cherry-picked Jefferson quotes to “prove” that the sage of Monticello was a believer—or not.

Want to prove that Jefferson was a committed Christian? It’s easy.

Jefferson wrote, “I am a real Christian, that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.” He called Christ’s teachings “the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man.” He urged “getting back to the plain and unsophisticated precepts of Christ.” He suggested that the defeat of Napoleon “proves that we have a god in heaven.” In his first inaugural address, he invoked the blessings of “that Infinite Power which rules the destinies of the universe.” In his second inaugural address, he sought the blessings “of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our forefathers, as Israel of old, from their native land and planted them in a country flowing with all the necessaries and comforts of life.”

Want to prove that Jefferson was a militant secularist? That’s easy, too.

Jefferson wrote that “Jesus did not mean to impose himself on mankind as the son of God.” He called the writers of the New Testament “ignorant, unlettered men” who produced “superstitions, fanaticisms, and fabrications.” He called the Apostle Paul the “first corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus.” He dismissed the concept of the Trinity as “mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus.” He believed that the clergy used religion as a “mere contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves” and that “in every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty.” And he wrote in a letter to John Adams that “the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”

So which Jefferson was the real Jefferson—the serious Christian or the angry heretic?

Both, says Waldman. Jefferson’s beliefs don’t conform to the “stereotypes created by modern culture warriors,” Waldman wrote. “He was anti-Christian and pro-Jesus. He was anti-religion and pro-God. He was against blind faith and in favor of reason-based belief. He resented being considered a heretic because he believed that his approach to God and Jesus was more faithful to both of them.”

Now, if you can find ANYTHING about Jefferson referring to ANY deity other than the God of the Bible - the JudeoChristian God, then provide some evidence for it.

But even the humanists' position on this dealt with Jefferson ONLY referring to the Bible, the Jesus of the Bible, the God of the Bible.....

And part of the reason he was so mad at the clergy was because they were accusing him of being an atheist. If I accuse one of you guys of being an atheist, and you ARE, you're gonna simply say "yeah, so what?"

[rogue06]

No doubt we would consider Jefferson an unorthodox Christian at best, but there's no doubt that the God to whom He referred was the God of the Bible.

Was Thomas Jefferson a Christian?

Jefferson was very convinced that his commitment to the moral system of Jesus of Nazareth made him a Christian. He wrote in 1816 that “I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.” He believed that only “true” Christians, like himself, would get to enter the kingdom of God.[8]

Where do we learn about Jesus of Nazareth? The Bible. The Christian Bible.

So, show me, Roy, where Jefferson ever referred to Islam, or any other religion or religious leader other than the religion of the Bible, and the God thereof.

No more speculation or woulda shoulda coulda -- facts.


8 Fea, 206. Jefferson to Charles Thomson, January 9, 1816; Jefferson to Salma Hale, July 26, 1818; Jefferson, “Syllabus of an Estimate of the Merit of the Doctrines of Jesus, Compared with Those of Others,” April 23, 1803. Jefferson to Benjamin Waterhouse, June 26, 1822; Jefferson to Waterhouse, October 15, 1822.

IMHO, Jefferson walked a fine line between unorthodox Christianity and deism. Sort of like how Unitarians do.

And when he mentions God, the Judeo-Christian view is the model that he works from. After all, it wasn't the Qur'an, the Vedas or the Tao Te Ching that he choose as the basis for his Bible.

[Roy]

You're just wrong, Roy. Nobody at the time doubted that Jefferson was referring to the JudeoChristian God of the Bible.

[CP mode]
You're just wrong, CP. Many people at the time knew that Jefferson was a deist and believed in a non-interventionist God, and his used of 'God' included that concept as well as the Judaic and Christian concepts of God.
[/CP mode]

Not convincing?

At least mine is based on the known facts about Jefferson's beliefs, and not just on my own preferred view of the unrecorded thoughts of unnamed people.

[Roy]

No doubt we would consider Jefferson an unorthodox Christian at best, but there's no doubt that the God to whom He referred was the God of the Bible.

Was Thomas Jefferson a Christian?

Jefferson was very convinced that his commitment to the moral system of Jesus of Nazareth made him a Christian. He wrote in 1816 that “I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus.” He believed that only “true” Christians, like himself, would get to enter the kingdom of God.[8]

Where do we learn about Jesus of Nazareth? The Bible. The Christian Bible.

So, show me, Roy, where Jefferson ever referred to Islam, or any other religion or religious leader other than the religion of the Bible, and the God thereof.

You don't understand what I'm saying, CP. Your responses have been so far off the mark I'm not sure you're even reading my posts.

[Roy]

So, realizing you'd poopoo on any conservative or Christian site commenting on Jefferson, I thought I'd ask the humanists...
Now, mind you, this is not "gospel" - it's their own spin, but...

... And he wrote in a letter to John Adams that “the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”...

Now, if you can find ANYTHING about Jefferson referring to ANY deity other than the God of the Bible - the JudeoChristian God, then provide some evidence for it.

That bit, where Jefferson rejects the Christian God as being a fable. IfJefferson rejected the Christian God, his own God must have been something else.

Your continued mistake is in assuming that when Jefferson said 'God' he had to be referring to a specific named deity, rather than the god of natural theology, and that because the Christian God was the only one so named, Jefferson must have meant that.

What have you got that says 'God' in the DoI was a reference specifically to the (Judeo)Christian God, and not a reference to any God someone might believe in? You've produced nothing so far.

[Roy]

IMHO, Jefferson walked a fine line between unorthodox Christianity and deism. Sort of like how Unitarians do.

And when he mentions God, the Judeo-Christian view is the model that he works from. After all, it wasn't the Qur'an, the Vedas or the Tao Te Ching that he choose as the basis for his Bible.

That's true. But the Judeo-Christian view was only the model he used to build something else from. It's not what he actually believed, it's merely a starting point he ultimately rejected as a fable.