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  • Originally posted by Roy View Post
    You don't understand what I'm saying, CP. Your responses have been so far off the mark I'm not sure you're even reading my posts.
    Your posts don't reflect the fact the "God" referred to in the DoI was absolutely NOT any other than the God of the Bible, regardless of how you torture its meaning.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Roy View Post
      That bit, where Jefferson rejects the Christian God as being a fable. IfJefferson rejected the Christian God, his own God must have been something else.

      Your continued mistake is in assuming that when Jefferson said 'God' he had to be referring to a specific named deity, rather than the god of natural theology, and that because the Christian God was the only one so named, Jefferson must have meant that.

      What have you got that says 'God' in the DoI was a reference specifically to the (Judeo)Christian God, and not a reference to any God someone might believe in? You've produced nothing so far.
      His personal beliefs aside, the "God" to which he referred was the "God" whom the overwhelming majority of his contemporaries would have understood to be the God of the Bible.
      You have made implications that he may have been talking about Allah or some other "God", but you have ZERO evidence --- just your own unfounded opinion.
      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Roy View Post
        What have you got that says 'God' in the DoI was a reference specifically to the (Judeo)Christian God, and not a reference to any God someone might believe in? You've produced nothing so far.
        No, that's not the way it works -- I have produced all kinds of evidence that Jefferson was talking about the JudeoChristian God. Whether he was a Christian in the orthodox sense, or in his own made up sense - he was clearly referring to the Christ of the "Christian Bible", and the God thereof.

        On the other hand, you introduced the nutty concept that it might have even been Allah. You are the one who can't support your nutty nonsense, Roy.

        Give me something -- ANYTHING -- that shows Jefferson was NOT talking about "the God of the Bible".


        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

        Comment


        • Dear Roy. I was wrong about every President swearing in on the bible.

          Now you can admit being wrong too. It's not hard.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Roy View Post
            That's true. But the Judeo-Christian view was only the model he used to build something else from. It's not what he actually believed, it's merely a starting point he ultimately rejected as a fable.
            He only rejected parts as "fable", otherwise he would have tossed the whole thing rather than creating his annotated Bible.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • I would love to transport Roy back in time to that era, and let him ask ANYBODY "who is 'God' in the DoI?"
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                You have made implications that he may have been talking about Allah or some other "God", but you have ZERO evidence --- just your own unfounded opinion.
                I have not. I have said that he was talking about a more general 'God' that encompassed Christianity, Judaism, deism and possibly Islam and others. At no point have I said that Jefferson meant Allah.

                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                No, that's not the way it works -- I have produced all kinds of evidence that Jefferson was talking about the JudeoChristian God.
                Whether he was a Christian in the orthodox sense, or in his own made up sense - he was clearly referring to the Christ of the "Christian Bible", and the God thereof.
                No, you haven't produced any evidence of that - only your opinion.
                On the other hand, you introduced the nutty concept that it might have even been Allah.
                That's a sufficient to make responding further futile.
                Last edited by Roy; 05-13-2021, 05:49 AM.
                Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  Dear Roy. I was wrong about every President swearing in on the bible.

                  Now you can admit being wrong too. It's not hard.
                  You haven't even understood what I'm saying, let alone shown I'm wrong.
                  Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                  mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                  Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                  Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                  Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    He only rejected parts as "fable", otherwise he would have tossed the whole thing rather than creating his annotated Bible.
                    Oh definitely. But the parts he rejected included the whole idea that Jesus was the son of God - which is sufficiently central to Christianity that certain people here reject people who don't believe that as Christians.
                    Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                    mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                    Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                    Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                    Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                      Oh definitely. But the parts he rejected included the whole idea that Jesus was the son of God - which is sufficiently central to Christianity that certain people here reject people who don't believe that as Christians.
                      As Michael Corbett and Julia Mitchell Corbett put it in Politics and religion in the United States, Jefferson's beliefs were a bit of a mix of Christianity, Unitarianism, deism along with a dash of Theistic rationalism tossed in as well. While he obviously wasn't a Christian per se, his entire concept of God comes through the Judeo-Christian lens. There is absolutely no evidence to show his beliefs were influenced by Islam, Hinduism, Taoism, Shintoism, Sikhism etc. (or even that he had the faintest idea how those religions view God).

                      Moreover in various letters Jefferson still consistently described himself as either a Christian (although following his own unique type of Christianity) or Unitarian, as well as following various philosophies (such as Epicureanism). He also told John Adams that his role model was Joseph Priestley -- an English Unitarian and "natural philosopher" (the term for scientist back then).



                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        As Michael Corbett and Julia Mitchell Corbett put it in Politics and religion in the United States, Jefferson's beliefs were a bit of a mix of Christianity, Unitarianism, deism along with a dash of Theistic rationalism tossed in as well. While he obviously wasn't a Christian per se, his entire concept of God comes through the Judeo-Christian lens. There is absolutely no evidence to show his beliefs were influenced by Islam, Hinduism, Taoism, Shintoism, Sikhism etc. (or even that he had the faintest idea how those religions view God).

                        Moreover in various letters Jefferson still consistently described himself as either a Christian (although following his own unique type of Christianity) or Unitarian, as well as following various philosophies (such as Epicureanism). He also told John Adams that his role model was Joseph Priestley -- an English Unitarian and "natural philosopher" (the term for scientist back then).
                        Jefferson did describe himself as a Christian, or more accurately as a Christian deist - but in the context of someone who followed Jesus' teachings (effectively a small 'c' christian) rather than a believer in Jesus's divinity.

                        I'd be extremely surprised if Jefferson was completely unaware of the existence and non-biblical nature of Islam, Hinduism and the various native American and African religions.

                        The problems I see are
                        1) when people use Jefferson's self-description as a Christian to include him in Christianity for arguing that the US was founded on Christian principles, while simultaneously excluding from Christianity others who self-describe as Christians for reasons that would also apply to Jefferson;
                        2) using Jefferson's self-description as evidence he must have been talking only about the Christian (or JudeoChristian) God in the DoI (and using that to impose Christianity on non-Christians).
                        Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.

                        mikewhitney: What if the speed of light changed when light is passing through water? ... I have 3 semesters of college Physics.

                        Mountain Man: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
                        Mountain Man on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.

                        Sparko: Even the deists like Jefferson believed in the Christian God, ...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                          Jefferson did describe himself as a Christian, or more accurately as a Christian deist - but in the context of someone who followed Jesus' teachings (effectively a small 'c' christian) rather than a believer in Jesus's divinity.

                          I'd be extremely surprised if Jefferson was completely unaware of the existence and non-biblical nature of Islam, Hinduism and the various native American and African religions.

                          The problems I see are
                          1) when people use Jefferson's self-description as a Christian to include him in Christianity for arguing that the US was founded on Christian principles, while simultaneously excluding from Christianity others who self-describe as Christians for reasons that would also apply to Jefferson;
                          2) using Jefferson's self-description as evidence he must have been talking only about the Christian (or JudeoChristian) God in the DoI (and using that to impose Christianity on non-Christians).
                          Unaware? Highly unlikely. Most folks today are "aware" of Islam, Hinduism etc., but I'd wager that darn few could explain their beliefs with anything more than a young child's comprehension.

                          And back then you didn't have significant populations of them living in the colonial Americas. There could well have been entire colonies that contained neither. So there would not be any possibility of becoming familiar through exposure that we have today.

                          And as I previously pointed out

                          There were no folks like Joseph Campbell or Huston Smith to guide a westerner through what Hindus (often called "Hindoos" back then), or Taoists, Sikhs, Baha'ís, Shintoists, Buddhists and even Muslims thought, so whenever someone in the west referenced God it was going to be at the very least in the Judeo-Christian framework.




                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • Roy, Which religion's God did Jefferson's most resemble in nature?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                              You haven't even understood what I'm saying, let alone shown I'm wrong.
                              Originally posted by Roy View Post
                              You don't understand what I'm saying, CP. Your responses have been so far off the mark I'm not sure you're even reading my posts.
                              Yeah, that's it --- everybody else is wrong, cause they don't understand what you're saying.

                              I think the problem is that you don't know what you're saying -- you made an ignorant claim, can't back it up, and don't know how to get out of it.
                              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Roy View Post
                                Jefferson did describe himself as a Christian, or more accurately as a Christian deist - but in the context of someone who followed Jesus' teachings (effectively a small 'c' christian) rather than a believer in Jesus's divinity.
                                FACT!

                                I'd be extremely surprised if Jefferson was completely unaware of the existence and non-biblical nature of Islam, Hinduism and the various native American and African religions.
                                SPECULATION

                                The problems I see are
                                1) when people use Jefferson's self-description as a Christian to include him in Christianity for arguing that the US was founded on Christian principles, while simultaneously excluding from Christianity others who self-describe as Christians for reasons that would also apply to Jefferson;
                                That can be a separate issue.

                                2) using Jefferson's self-description as evidence he must have been talking only about the Christian (or JudeoChristian) God in the DoI (and using that to impose Christianity on non-Christians).
                                Yeah, it makes MUCH more sense that he was talking about Allah, cause everybody knows Jefferson was a closet Muslim.

                                He was talking about the God of the Bible - the Christian Bible - regardless of how he connected that God with Christ or not.




                                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                                Comment

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