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  • #46
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post



    Nobody said it was, but anybody with half a brain would value that over somebody who has ZERO experience, who doesn't even live here, and ignorantly thinks that "teachers unions" are "teaching unions". Do you wrongly believe, also, that "police unions" are "policing unions"?
    IIRC the Brits sometimes refer to them as "Teaching Unions" so that might be where she gets it from.


    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    It's not just "some police" and it's not new. Good cops, seeing all this drastic change in the country, are seen a need to defend good cops.
    Definitely nothing new as anyone familiar with the story of Frank Serpico can attest. Perhaps a better example is the evolution of the Los Angeles police from being thoroughly corrupt in the middle of the last century into a modern police force today.



    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      And yet it is universally perceived as being a far better indicator of competence and expertise than someone having absolutely no experience.
      Is it?

      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

        Don't be - it was boredom.
        Could you not find anything else to do? Read a book perhaps?



        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        Nobody said it was, but anybody with half a brain would value that over somebody who has ZERO experience, who doesn't even live here, and ignorantly thinks that "teachers unions" are "teaching unions".
        As I understand it the unions in the US represent teachers. The various police unions presumably represent the police.



        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
          Could you not find anything else to do? Read a book perhaps?



          As I understand it the unions in the US represent teachers. The various police unions presumably represent the police.
          They represent teachers but most certainly do not represent teaching. Far from it in fact. In fact the unions are currently fighting tooth-and-nail against teaching (unless it is the kids of illegal immigrants -- then they go during vacation and volunteer to teach them in person)

          A couple decades ago someone did an expose on a conference held by the National Education Association (NEA) -- the largest and most influential teacher's union. They noted how that not a single one of the topics scheduled for discussion had anything whatsoever to do with teaching. But they did have things about organizing protests as well as boycotting Snapple because at the time they advertised on Rush Limbaugh's show.

          This was a few years after then NEA president Keith Geiger said on Larry King's radio show, during a discussion about school choice, "we can't let kids escape from public schools." Interesting choice of words there. "Escape"

          It reveals the teacher's union mindset -- they must keep education under lock and key, no matter how how bad it may be. And Geiger freely admitted it was bad. He said that inner city schools "are absolutely terrible -- they ought to be blown up." Still, it matters not. Children should not be allowed to "escape" from the very bad public schools they are attending. They need to be sacrificed to the teacher unions[1]






          1. Public school teachers are more than twice as likely to send their own children to a private school than a the general public. It's almost like they know something.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            Could you not find anything else to do? Read a book perhaps?
            What I do with my time is none of your business.

            As I understand it the unions in the US represent teachers.
            The Teachers Unions represent teachers, correct - they are not "teaching unions" as they teach nobody.
            Taxpayers pay the teachers, the teachers pay the unions, and the unions represent the teachers, often against the will of the people.
            It's nearly impossible to fire a bad teacher, and when they are fired, they can just move to another school district and be bad teachers there, as well.

            The various police unions presumably represent the police.


            Now you're finally beginning to get it!

            Yes, they represent the interests of the police who pay them to do so, and an unfortunate result of that is that bad cops are protected against the citizens that pay the salaries of the police.

            It was obvious you didn't understand the role of the public sector unions at all. It's a whole different situation than private sector unions.
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              They represent teachers but most certainly do not represent teaching.
              I never suggested they did.

              The unions represent the teachers. Teachers develop and/or respond to changes within the curricula as those develop. Over the last forty/fifty years there have been tremendous changes in teaching methods, styles, and topics The education system also has to take into account changes within the wider society.



              "It ain't necessarily so
              The things that you're liable
              To read in the Bible
              It ain't necessarily so
              ."

              Sportin' Life
              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                I never suggested they did.
                You called them "teaching unions" --- they don't teach anybody.

                The unions represent the teachers.
                Often against the will of the people, and against the wellbeing of the students.

                Teachers develop and/or respond to changes within the curricula as those develop.
                Because the Teachers Unions are more interested in social experimentation than actual education. They can't graduate students with basic concepts of math and science, but they can spend their time on all kinds of social issues that are none of their business.

                Over the last forty/fifty years there have been tremendous changes in teaching methods, styles, and topics The education system also has to take into account changes within the wider society.
                You mean like the "new math" that fails miserably, and abandoning phonics for such nutty concepts as "it's not important how they spell or construct sentences as long as they try to communicate in their own way", or graduating students who have no concept whatsoever of actual geography, or how to manage a checkbook, or do basic math.....

                The liberals have controlled our public schools for decades, and our students who actually graduate are subpar for the world.
                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                  You called them "teaching unions" --- they don't teach anybody.
                  As in unions representing the teaching profession.

                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Often against the will of the people, and against the wellbeing of the students.
                  In your opinion.

                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  Because the Teachers Unions are more interested in social experimentation than actual education.
                  In your opinion.

                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  They can't graduate students with basic concepts of math and science, but they can spend their time on all kinds of social issues that are none of their business.
                  Teaching is like child rearing it is prone to fads and gimmicks. Precisely like the new math you mention.

                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                  The liberals have controlled our public schools for decades, and our students who actually graduate are subpar for the world.
                  Oh come now I do not think you can lay all America's social ills at the door of "liberals".
                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                    As in unions representing the teaching profession.
                    They don't represent the teaching profession - they protect teachers - good or bad.

                    Teaching is like child rearing it is prone to fads and gimmicks. Precisely like the new math you mention.

                    Oh come now I do not think you can lay all America's social ills at the door of "liberals".
                    The liberals have been in charge of public education for decades.
                    The liberals are supportive of the public school unions.
                    The public school unions give very generously to the liberal politicians.

                    So, yeah, it's the liberals, and you are showing your profound ignorance of the facts.
                    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      I never suggested they did.

                      The unions represent the teachers. Teachers develop and/or respond to changes within the curricula as those develop. Over the last forty/fifty years there have been tremendous changes in teaching methods, styles, and topics The education system also has to take into account changes within the wider society.
                      If you really want to see the teacher's union philosophy summed up nice and neat, then the quote attributed to Albert Shanker, president of the United Federation of Teachers and then the American Federation of Teachers) for well over 30 years, says it all:

                      When school children start paying union dues, that’s when I'll start representing the interests of school children


                      Teacher's unions have been pretty upfront with the fact that they aren't there to improve education but rather to make union member's jobs easier.


                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                        If you really want to see the teacher's union philosophy summed up nice and neat, then the quote attributed to Albert Shanker, president of the United Federation of Teachers and then the American Federation of Teachers) for well over 30 years, says it all:

                        When school children start paying union dues, that’s when I'll start representing the interests of school children


                        Teacher's unions have been pretty upfront with the fact that they aren't there to improve education but rather to make union member's jobs easier.
                        EGGzackly. I don't know what teachers unions do in Europe, which is why I reserve my comments for things about which I actually know a thing or two.

                        H_A would be well advised to do likewise. She is suffering under the delusion that Teachers Unions actually care about education.
                        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          National Education Association (NEA)

                          (Bolding and Embiggening mine)

                          The National Education Association (NEA) is America’s largest labor union representing nearly three million employees, principally teachers. With affiliates in every state across 14,000 communities [1], NEA represents teachers, education support professionals, retired teachers, education faculty and staff, substitute teachers, and administrators.[2] It exercises enormous political clout in everything from contract negotiations to issue advocacy and lobbying.[3]

                          The NEA is a major political player, with its associated political action committees contributing nearly $143.5 million to federal candidates and committees—97% of which supported Democrats and liberals—from 1990 through February 2019. [4] The NEA is also deeply entangled in state and local politics and is a major contributor to left-of-center nonprofit organizations.[5]


                          The NEA doesn't give a rat's rear about education - they are there to collect dues, line their own pocketbooks, and pay off politicians.
                          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Again, the NEA - the National Education Association - is not about education at all, but it's a LABOR union notorious for backing liberal candidates and causes, and spending massive amounts of dues payers' money on political causes that the dues payers don't necessarily support, themselves. But just TRY to get a job in public education without being fleeced by the NEA.

                            National Education Association a Left-Wing 'Lobbying Group.' You'd Never Know it Watching Networks

                            When even a liberal president criticizes the educational system, the groups happy with the status quo have problems. “We've got to be able to identify teachers who are doing well [and] teachers who are not doing well. We've got to give them the support and the training to do well,” said President Obama on NBC's Today Show Sept. 27. “And, ultimately, if some teachers aren't doing a good job, they've got to go.”

                            The president was discussing the new documentary on education reform, “Waiting for Superman.” Both the film and Obama's comments ran the risk of angering a huge, powerful liberal constituency: The National Education Association, the nation's largest teachers' union.

                            But while the media doesn't seem to have a problem with recklessly labeling conservative groups – when it comes to accurately describing liberal special interest groups like the NEA, news broadcasters appear to be at a loss.

                            The NEA, America's 3.2-million member teachers' union and a liberal lobbying group that is one of the largest and most powerful donors to the Democratic Party, was almost never labeled as such on MSNBC, CNN and the network news stations over the past year.

                            Just How Liberal?

                            The motto on the NEA's website is “Great Public Schools for Every Student.” The important word there is “Public.” The NEA is ideologically opposed to school vouchers and charter schools as a way break the monopoly of failed public schools, even as it fights increased accountability for teachers in an effort to make schools “great.”.

                            President Obama's Sept. 27 statements appear to part ways with the liberal policies backed by the NEA. His words, however, may just be lip service. In the recent Democratic primary for Mayor of Washington, D.C., (a city with some of America's worst performing public schools) Obama didn't endorse incumbent Mayor Adrian Fenty who had been a major advocate for school reform..

                            In fact, the NEA helped put Obama in the White House, and its advocacy for liberal policies goes well outside the realm of education. An October 2008 press release available on the union's website announced a “multipronged communications blitz in 10 battleground states” that attacked “Sen. McCain's wrongheaded prescription plan for what ails America's health care system.”

                            The fact is, when Democrats look to their liberal base, the NEA is one of the stalwarts they count on. The NEA spent roughly $50 million on “political activities and lobbying” mostly for Democratic causes and campaigns in 2009. The organization has 16 in-house lobbyists, and also outsources to four other major D.C. lobbying firms. From 1990 to 2008, 93 percent of the donations made by the group went to Democrats, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.

                            ...

                            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                              They don't represent the teaching profession - they protect teachers - good or bad.



                              The liberals have been in charge of public education for decades.
                              The liberals are supportive of the public school unions.
                              The public school unions give very generously to the liberal politicians.

                              So, yeah, it's the liberals, and you are showing your profound ignorance of the facts.
                              I consider your response far too simplistic.
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                If you really want to see the teacher's union philosophy summed up nice and neat, then the quote attributed to Albert Shanker, president of the United Federation of Teachers and then the American Federation of Teachers) for well over 30 years, says it all:

                                When school children start paying union dues, that’s when I'll start representing the interests of school children


                                Teacher's unions have been pretty upfront with the fact that they aren't there to improve education but rather to make union member's jobs easier.
                                Selected instances and unsupported remarks.
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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