The Blue Wall of Silence Is Starting to Crack

[Gondwanaland]

I am not interested in your thread. I am asking a correspondent to my thread to support his statements.

Thank you for confirming quite clearly to me that you are not asking with a genuine interest for an answer.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

And I answered your two specific questions, as did CP. So either you're on a loop, or you're not genuinely interested in answers, only in berating people and repeating questions because you can't address the facts.

No you didn't. You referred to the DoJ and a [very good] television series about organised crime.

Re unions being run by organised crime you initially stated "most are".

So I have two very simple questions for you. Which unions are being run by organised crime? And how do you know?

[Cow Poke]

No you didn't. You referred to the DoJ and a [very good] television series about organised crime.

Re unions being run by organised crime you initially stated "most are".

So I have two very simple questions for you. Which unions are being run by organised crime? And how do you know?

Yet another derail to avoid the fact that LABOR UNIONS are a really stinking idea for police departments, when the most problematic police departments are screwed up because LABOR UNIONS won't let them discipline and/or fire bad cops.

My money's on H_A continuing to try her best to avoid the real issue with yet MORE derails.

[Cow Poke]

Thank you for confirming quite clearly to me that you are not asking with a genuine interest for an answer.

A decent person would say, "oh, ok --- you're right, a national labor union isn't such a good idea for police departments all over the US, especially since the most problematic police departments are problematic BECAUSE they have police unions".

But, no.......

stop digging.jpg

[rogue06]

No you didn't. You referred to the DoJ and a [very good] television series about organised crime.

Re unions being run by organised crime you initially stated "most are".

So I have two very simple questions for you. Which unions are being run by organised crime? And how do you know?

Since you love to quibble...

Run? Not the best descriptor. But organized crime has a long historic connection with labor unions -- some more than others. This relationship pretty much peaked from the 40s through 70s but is still pretty strong. Or as it can be for an ever diminishing portion of the private labor sector.

[Cow Poke]

Since you love to quibble...

Run? Not the best descriptor. But organized crime has a long historic connection with labor unions -- some more than others. This relationship pretty much peaked from the 40s through 70s but is still pretty strong. Or as it can be for an ever diminishing portion of the private labor sector.

Last I saw, union membership in private sector unions was falling fast, and the only unions that were growing were public sector unions because of growing government.

50 Years Of Shrinking Union Membership, In One Map

Fifty years ago, nearly a third of U.S. workers belonged to a union. Today, it's one in 10. But the decline has not been the same for every state. Here is a map showing how union membership has changed across the country.

It's a dynamic map, so you need to go to the site to see it, but it shows, over time, how unions are losing members, and for good reason.

[Gondwanaland]

No you didn't. You referred to the DoJ and a [very good] television series about organised crime.

Re unions being run by organised crime you initially stated "most are".

So I have two very simple questions for you. Which unions are being run by organised crime? And how do you know?

Yes, I did answer your questions. As did CP. That you did not grasp the meaning of the answers is not within my power of remedying things.

[Cow Poke]

And, AGAIN.....

Let's try this...

Find me a list of corrupt police departments who do NOT have a labor union.

[Cow Poke]

And some more information our resident Gramma Nazi will do her best to ignore....

How police unions actually hurt police officers

[bolding and embiggening mine]

....But there's another critical reform to America's criminal justice system that is little talked about, but very important: Hidebound police unions that block elementary transparency and public accountability at every level.

And...

This is but one example of police unions going to eye-popping lengths to protect rogue cops at the expense of citizens (and the many decent cops who are tainted as well). Consider the binding arbitration that has become a standard feature of virtually all police contracts, which are often negotiated in secrecy. Binding arbitration allows cops to appeal any disciplinary action taken by their superiors to outside arbitrators such as retired judges. In theory, these folks are supposed to be neutral third parties. In reality, they are usually in the pockets of unions and dismiss or roll back a striking two-thirds of all actions, even against cops with a history of abuse and excessive violence. The upshot is that police chiefs are powerless to clean house, even as community complaints pile up. This is exactly what was happening in Baltimore when Freddie Gray died during his ride to the police station last year.

Over and over and over, the unions usurp the power of the police chiefs and command staff to deal with problem cops.

Yeah, like we need that on a NATIONAL level!

[Cow Poke]

Don’t reform police unions. Abolish them

Collective bargaining by police unions rigs the system against ordinary citizens — never more so than when those citizens are abused with impunity by violent or reckless cops.

One of the most notable differences between police unions and police associations, as I have so articulately explained, is "collective bargaining".

The nationwide backlash against police abuses has already had one salutary effect: It has led to greater awareness of the role played by labor unions in protecting bad cops. In the wake of George Floyd’s death, calls to reform the powerful police unions have been expressed across the political spectrum.

But the only way to “reform” police unions is to abolish them altogether and end collective bargaining for public-safety employees.

Derek Chauvin, the Minneapolis police officer who killed George Floyd, is a textbook illustration of how unionized police departments shelter cops known to be incompetent or dangerous. Chauvin had been the subject of at least 18 complaints of misconduct over the years, without ever facing any serious discipline. That was typical for Minneapolis; according to The Wall Street Journal, of 2,600 misconduct complaints filed since 2012 with the city’s Office of Police Conduct Review, only 12 have resulted in discipline.

In Minnesota as in most states, police officers are represented by unions with which municipalities are required to bargain collectively. The contracts they negotiate have long been notorious for their lavish pay, lucrative overtime rules, early retirement benefits, and outlandish disability provisions. But what millions of Americans are now realizing is that union contracts also make it so difficult to hold misbehaving cops answerable for their behavior that supervisors often don’t try.

That last part - about the collective bargaining for "outlandish disability provisions", early retirement benefits, lavish pay --- is greatly complicated by the fact that even after a short time of service, union cops get to retire with OUTRAGEOUS retirement packages, making it more and more difficult to afford the hiring and training of new cops.

Do we REALLY want this on a national level? Only a psycho would say yes!

[Cow Poke]

Yes, I did answer your questions. As did CP. That you did not grasp the meaning of the answers is not within my power of remedying things.

I don't think the problem is that she did not grasp it, but she absolutely refuses to accept facts! She started this thread, it bit her in the butt, and she just keeps on digging.

[Cow Poke]

Just one more before bed....

Police unions and police misconduct: What the research says about the connection

This time, just the headings from the article...

Unionization emboldens violent officers

Use-of-force complaints more likely among unionized officers

Lengthy appeals processes make it more difficult to fire ‘bad apples’

Other contract provisions also shield police from accountability

Police unions advocate shielding disciplinary records from public view

Unionized police may be more likely to kill civilians, particularly nonwhite ones

But police unions tend to be resistant to such efforts, as their mandate is to protect the interests of their members — even in cases when those interests may be counter to democratic norms and values. Though an understudied topic of criminology, what research that does exist is unequivocal: “Virtually all of the published items that express an opinion on the impact of police unions regard them as having a negative effect, particularly on innovation, accountability, and police — community relations,” as a review in the journal Police Practice and Research put it.

And H_A thinks we need NATIONAL POLICE UNIONS?!?!?!

[Gondwanaland]

I don't think the problem is that she did not grasp it, but she absolutely refuses to accept facts! She started this thread, it bit her in the butt, and she just keeps on digging.

At this rate I think she may make it to China.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Yes, I did answer your questions. As did CP. That you did not grasp the meaning of the answers is not within my power of remedying things.

You have not given me specifics. Nor is your advice to watch The Sopranos [regardless of the merits of that series as television drama] of any real use in ascertaining how you are personally familiar with unions that [in the real world] are being run by organised crime.

However, I have found some information for myself.

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Since you love to quibble...

Run? Not the best descriptor. But organized crime has a long historic connection with labor unions -- some more than others. This relationship pretty much peaked from the 40s through 70s but is still pretty strong. Or as it can be for an ever diminishing portion of the private labor sector.

I am not disputing the known historical facts, nor present day concerns. And run was an inappropriate choice of word. Organised crime uses more subtle and covert tactics for infiltration and control.



I put the following question to Cow Poke [post # 311] "Or do you imagine all unions are run by organised crime?"

Gondwanaland replied at post #313 "Most are, yes." [he did not challenge my inappropriate usage of the word "run"]

Hence I asked how Gondwanaland which unions were being run by organised crime and how did he know?

However, as he did not give me specifics I did my own little bit of Googling on the topic.