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  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

    Mebbe, mebbe not. I've seen pro-forma criticisms of the former guy used to forestall accusations of bias, and the arguments you're citing, e.g. "suddenly appearing," are clearly Trumpian. Without seeing the stories, I can't argue further for provenance, but that particular claim is embarrassingly wrong. Not only were those votes tracked, and the state laws that prevented them from being counted prior to election day reported, there were endless stories of local Republican officials warning that the campaign to cast doubt on mail-in voting was sabotaging Republican mail-in campaigns they'd historically been winning.
    I retract the "suddenly appearing" bit - that was sloppiness on my part. The criticisms of Trump in the stories I've read were certainly not pro forma, and were consistently applied throughout his first campaign and presidency. Are you conflating absentee mail-in voting (historically good for Republicans, as the generally pro-Republican military figures heavily in that) with COVID-inspired mass-mail voting?
    Former guy knew he was going to lose, and figured out a way to create a spurious lead by getting his votes counted before his opponents'.
    That there's some Q-level conspiracy theory, Jerk.
    The marine and his wife would enjoy the company of your brother-in-law, but with me around, unabashedly taking advantage of my superior ability to teach arithmetic, the abashedness is seriously curtailed. For the sake of peace and brotherhood, we don't argue politics, but I've laid down a line. He's under notice to keep his politics away from my science or be forced to sit and squirm while I debunk it.
    He'd like his gun collection, too.

    Leave a comment:


  • Juvenal
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    You'd lose that bet, I'm afraid. The stories included plenty of criticism regarding the former occupant. If you want to talk to an unabashed Trump supporter, you need to talk to my brother in law, not me.
    Mebbe, mebbe not. I've seen pro-forma criticisms of the former guy used to forestall accusations of bias, and the arguments you're citing, e.g. "suddenly appearing," are clearly Trumpian. Without seeing the stories, I can't argue further for provenance, but that particular claim is embarrassingly wrong. Not only were those votes tracked, and the state laws that prevented them from being counted prior to election day reported, there were endless stories of local Republican officials warning that the campaign to cast doubt on mail-in voting was sabotaging Republican mail-in campaigns they'd historically been winning.

    Former guy knew he was going to lose, and figured out a way to create a spurious lead by getting his votes counted before his opponents'.

    The marine and his wife would enjoy the company of your brother-in-law, but with me around, unabashedly taking advantage of my superior ability to teach arithmetic, the abashedness is seriously curtailed. For the sake of peace and brotherhood, we don't argue politics, but I've laid down a line. He's under notice to keep his politics away from my science or be forced to sit and squirm while I debunk it.

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

    The reporting you needed to follow to answer that skepticism was abundantly available. You chose to give that time to less reputable sources. That's what opportunity cost looks like.

    I'm skeptical in turn of any claim it's not because of anything Trump said. I'd be willing to bet the stories you read that fed that skepticism were written to support the former occupant's baseless charges of fraud, and would not have otherwise been written.
    You'd lose that bet, I'm afraid. The stories included plenty of criticism regarding the former occupant. If you want to talk to an unabashed Trump supporter, you need to talk to my brother in law, not me.
    Obviously I'm not buying it for the artwork. I'm buying it for the stories behind the chosen portraits. I want to be able to say their names.

    Leave a comment:


  • KingsGambit
    replied
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

    Well, considering there is no such thing of consequence called the "popular vote" ...
    From a sociological perspective, it's worth considering, in the same way that many Christians have been pondering the recent reports that a majority of Americans are no longer churchgoers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ronson
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I remain deeply skeptical of the outcome of the last election, because it turned on crucial states flipping at the last moment due to large numbers of ballots cast in a manner conducive to fraud which were counted in a manner noted for its lack of transparency - not because of anything Trump said. Regardless, Trump was often his own worst enemy.
    Well said.

    Skepticism about the election results have nothing whatsoever to do with Trump's claims, but simple observation and the laws of probability.

    Leave a comment:


  • Juvenal
    replied
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    I remain deeply skeptical of the outcome of the last election, because it turned on crucial states flipping at the last moment due to large numbers of ballots cast in a manner conducive to fraud which were counted in a manner noted for its lack of transparency - not because of anything Trump said. Regardless, Trump was often his own worst enemy.
    The reporting you needed to follow to answer that skepticism was abundantly available. You chose to give that time to less reputable sources. That's what opportunity cost looks like.

    I'm skeptical in turn of any claim it's not because of anything Trump said. I'd be willing to bet the stories you read that fed that skepticism were written to support the former occupant's baseless charges of fraud, and would not have otherwise been written.

    Back to the thread topic - Dubya is an interesting character, managing to turn his life around and accomplish something after it looked for a while like he would party himself into oblivion. I appreciate that he's retired from politics and let others be president without interjecting his own commentary. I also appreciate current immigrants - my godfather was born in Hungary, and my father in law was born in Mexico.
    There were incidents of crony capitalism that put me on a slow burn. I can still see him nodding at Cheney during a speech to Congress when he called for settlement of asbestos claims. In one glance, you could see straight into the conversations between them recounting the same claims Halliburton had been making for years while Cheney was leading the company.

    And then he stood up to the dark lord and refused to pardon Scooter Libby.

    Go Frodo.

    Even as a detractor, I could see Dubya held his Christian faith close and used it to guide him when he chose to stand up for doing the right thing. He was a gaffe machine too. His tongue often ran athwartships of his thoughts, and it taught him the same self-deprecating humility you can see in the o/p cite. Kinda like you, piglet, maybe we're always gonna disagree, but I can't help but like ya.

    Obviously I'm not buying it for the artwork. I'm buying it for the stories behind the chosen portraits. I want to be able to say their names.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Ronson View Post

    Nope. Not everyone has a tendency to be mean.

    mean streak
    : a tendency to be mean


    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict.../mean%20streak

    But I will amend my statement. For a person to ascend to the presidency (IMO) the person must have a mean streak, be conniving, and be somewhat (if not entirely) dishonest. A humble and honest person would be chewed up and spit out long before getting to the White House.
    They also have to be rather narcistic. The last two occupants of the White House took that one to the extreme.

    Leave a comment:


  • Juvenal
    replied
    Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
    In 2020, for the first time in US history, there were more Independents than registered Republicans.
    Something was bugging me on this. Double-checking, it is literally true, so good job remembering a story from more than a year ago, but not that simple, so the brownie points need to get handed back.

    The decline is part of a trend that antedated the last occupant, and was more pronounced for the Democrats.

    For the first time, there are fewer registered Republicans than independents
    .
    But before anybody chalks this up as having to do with the current occupant of the White House, it’s worth parsing the trends.

    While independents have surpassed Republicans, there actually hasn’t been a huge drop in GOP party registration since President Trump took office. Since October 2016, GOP registration has dropped by half a percentage point. The number of registered Democrats declined by nearly a full point over the same span. Independents have benefited from both drops.

    And they have been doing so for years. Democrats are more than three points off their peak this century, which was in 2008, when Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) was about to become president. At the time, 43.62 percent of voters were registered Democrats.

    Republicans are also more than three points off where they were four years earlier, in 2004, when 32.79 percent of voters were Republican and George W. Bush won reelection.

    There are other ways to approach this. Pew tracks party plus independent lean, for instance.

    Leave a comment:


  • One Bad Pig
    replied
    Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

    A lot of Republicans believe the last election was stolen based on the word of a guy who took a sharpie to the forecast map of Hurricane Dorian, whose temperament lost the popular vote by three million votes in his first campaign and seven million votes in his second. What a lot of Republicans believe is less a commentary on the strength of a winning argument than a cautionary tale on the hazards of deliberately choosing fiction over fact.

    No Republican presidential candidate has won the popular vote since Bush the Lesser. That's an awfully strong argument regardless of what a lot of Republicans believe. Here's another one. In 2020, for the first time in US history, there were more Independents than registered Republicans. Spurred on by the temperament of the last resident of the White House, the Republican Party is turning on its own and bleeding out.
    I remain deeply skeptical of the outcome of the last election, because it turned on crucial states flipping at the last moment due to large numbers of ballots cast in a manner conducive to fraud which were counted in a manner noted for its lack of transparency - not because of anything Trump said. Regardless, Trump was often his own worst enemy.

    Back to the thread topic - Dubya is an interesting character, managing to turn his life around and accomplish something after it looked for a while like he would party himself into oblivion. I appreciate that he's retired from politics and let others be president without interjecting his own commentary. I also appreciate current immigrants - my godfather was born in Hungary, and my father in law was born in Mexico.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill the Cat
    replied
    Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

    A lot of Republicans believe the last election was stolen based on the word of a guy who took a sharpie to the forecast map of Hurricane Dorian, whose temperament lost the popular vote by three million votes in his first campaign and seven million votes in his second. What a lot of Republicans believe is less a commentary on the strength of a winning argument than a cautionary tale on the hazards of deliberately choosing fiction over fact.

    No Republican presidential candidate has won the popular vote since Bush the Lesser. That's an awfully strong argument regardless of what a lot of Republicans believe. Here's another one. In 2020, for the first time in US history, there were more Independents than registered Republicans. Spurred on by the temperament of the last resident of the White House, the Republican Party is turning on its own and bleeding out.
    Well, considering there is no such thing of consequence called the "popular vote" ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Juvenal
    replied
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    A lot of Republicans say they learned the "lesson" that electing someone perceived as a nice guy gets you beat in the head in 2012, and I guess it's difficult to argue too hard with the results there.
    A lot of Republicans believe the last election was stolen based on the word of a guy who took a sharpie to the forecast map of Hurricane Dorian, whose temperament lost the popular vote by three million votes in his first campaign and seven million votes in his second. What a lot of Republicans believe is less a commentary on the strength of a winning argument than a cautionary tale on the hazards of deliberately choosing fiction over fact.

    No Republican presidential candidate has won the popular vote since Bush the Lesser. That's an awfully strong argument regardless of what a lot of Republicans believe. Here's another one. In 2020, for the first time in US history, there were more Independents than registered Republicans. Spurred on by the temperament of the last resident of the White House, the Republican Party is turning on its own and bleeding out.

    Leave a comment:


  • KingsGambit
    replied
    Rather than get into the weeds of whether Bush was a bloodthirsty warmonger, principled Christian, or something in between, I'd rather just note that it's likely to be a long time before the US ever elects a president with a temperament like his, and certainly not nominated by the Republicans. A lot of Republicans say they learned the "lesson" that electing someone perceived as a nice guy gets you beat in the head in 2012, and I guess it's difficult to argue too hard with the results there.

    Leave a comment:


  • Ronson
    replied
    Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

    That's not a compelling argument. Everyone has a mean streak. Even decent guys. Even me, and my baking largesse is simply legendary.
    Nope. Not everyone has a tendency to be mean.

    mean streak
    : a tendency to be mean


    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict.../mean%20streak

    But I will amend my statement. For a person to ascend to the presidency (IMO) the person must have a mean streak, be conniving, and be somewhat (if not entirely) dishonest. A humble and honest person would be chewed up and spit out long before getting to the White House.

    Leave a comment:


  • rogue06
    replied
    Originally posted by Juvenal View Post

    Even me, and my baking largesse is simply legendary.
    X Lao.gif
    The Devil's Baker

    Leave a comment:


  • Juvenal
    replied
    Originally posted by Ronson View Post

    As far as being a "decent guy," I believe anyone aspiring and succeeding to the presidency has a mean streak, or they wouldn't have made it there.
    That's not a compelling argument. Everyone has a mean streak. Even decent guys. Even me, and my baking largesse is simply legendary.

    Leave a comment:

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