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The USA and "Anglo-Saxon traditions".

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    You are. What has Denmark to do with Amsterdam?
    Darn good question!

    I don't know why I introduced Denmark back in post #61. That's the third brain fart in as many days. Kinda hard to hide that I'm fairly distracted by the news of a potential break in something that has been stalled by the $@%#$ Chicom coronavirus.

    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

      The mindset was quite different though. The "new world" was seen, as largely unclaimed land, ripe for someone to come in and settle on. Compare that to modern day immigrants who are moving into a (known and understood) sovereign country. It creates two very different dynamics and mindsets.
      I'm afraid, "us" non-Europeans who have had the misfortune to be colonized---are well aware of the "colonial mindset". ---and not just the "new world"---the whole world was seen as ripe for the picking---"occupied" or not. And just to make clear---The Natives of any land did not consider themselves as invisible---they were very certain they really occupied their own lands.

      I do not see it as much of a loss to humanity if the "colonial mindset" and /or its consequent legacy of supremacy and justification of prejudice is reduced by another culture that is more beneficial to humanity.
      However, not everything about European heritage culture (West) is bad/harmful...and the good can be adopted by others for their own benefit...likewise, the good from other cultures can also be adopted by the West---a mutual give and take/sharing.....
      What is changed and what is retained is the right of each generation to decide....?.....

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        Darn good question!

        I don't know why I introduced Denmark back in post #61. That's the third brain fart in as many days.
        Anno Domini?
        "It ain't necessarily so
        The things that you're liable
        To read in the Bible
        It ain't necessarily so
        ."

        Sportin' Life
        Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by siam View Post

          I'm afraid, "us" non-Europeans who have had the misfortune to be colonized---are well aware of the "colonial mindset". ---and not just the "new world"---the whole world was seen as ripe for the picking---"occupied" or not. And just to make clear---The Natives of any land did not consider themselves as invisible---they were very certain they really occupied their own lands.

          I do not see it as much of a loss to humanity if the "colonial mindset" and /or its consequent legacy of supremacy and justification of prejudice is reduced by another culture that is more beneficial to humanity.
          However, not everything about European heritage culture (West) is bad/harmful...and the good can be adopted by others for their own benefit...likewise, the good from other cultures can also be adopted by the West---a mutual give and take/sharing.....
          What is changed and what is retained is the right of each generation to decide....?.....
          I'm not saying that Europeans were right. Just that calling them immigrants and comparing them to modern day immigrants is just a mismatched comparison.

          Its like comparing cars to ww2 era tanks when talking about passenger comfort on the road.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

            That is actually a statement more or less on a par with those that didn't see a need to remove 'separate but equal' in the '60s.

            When one is trying to live one's life according to certain principles, and even more so raising ones children in an environment that is pulling day after day contrary to your morals and beliefs, it presents a struggle that is not easy to overcome. Seeking out a place to create an ideal environment free from influences that would undermine one's efforts to live out one's life in accordance with one's religion is a common occurrence and more than that, is a natural human response to such an situation. Trivializing it and declaring it could not possibly have been a motivating factor for the pilgrims is a bit absurd. That IS why they came. That is in fact what many of them did.
            William Bradford, one of the founders, and later a governor, of the Plymouth Colony, was one of the "dissenter" congregation led by John Robinson that left England and settled in The Netherlands where many of them spent upward of a decade in poverty working as weavers before they boarded the Mayflower. That decision [again citing Bradford] appears to have included a fear of assimilation into Dutch society. It may also have been exacerbated by economic and political factors.
            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Unfortunately, this is considerably less so these days. Many immigrants (especially those not interested in coming here legally) are not at all interested in assimilating. They are aided by some on the left who in some cases even encourage them to remain separate and even don't learn English.
              As the saying goes, "This is the United States of America. You shouldn't have to press one for English."
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Juvenal View Post
                I can't find a copy of the actual document either, which is troubling, but it's extensively quoted by a healthy variety of news sites. Given the broad harvest of quotes, it'd be difficult to dismiss it as cherry picking.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                  The mindset was quite different though. The "new world" was seen, as largely unclaimed land, ripe for someone to come in and settle on.
                  It was completely different. For many Christian settlers the Americas were the new Israel and therefore they had no qualms about applying the biblical accounts of the [supposed] eradication of the indigenous peoples of Canaan. Smiting the heathens was divinely sanctioned.

                  "It ain't necessarily so
                  The things that you're liable
                  To read in the Bible
                  It ain't necessarily so
                  ."

                  Sportin' Life
                  Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                    William Bradford, one of the founders, and later a governor, of the Plymouth Colony, was one of the "dissenter" congregation led by John Robinson that left England and settled in The Netherlands where many of them spent upward of a decade in poverty working as weavers before they boarded the Mayflower. That decision [again citing Bradford] appears to have included a fear of assimilation into Dutch society. It may also have been exacerbated by economic and political factors.
                    The assimilation issue is one of the factors I was referring to when I mentioned that Amsterdam was "too free." They sought out a place where there would be no outside interference.

                    I'm also under the impression that a significant number of the original colonists were either anything but poor themselves, or came from families that could be described that way. That's not to say they were fabulously wealthy but what folks today would call "comfortable."

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      It was completely different. <hypatia's hatred of christians snipped>
                      Yes it was.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                        I'm not saying that Europeans were right. Just that calling them immigrants and comparing them to modern day immigrants is just a mismatched comparison.

                        Its like comparing cars to ww2 era tanks when talking about passenger comfort on the road.
                        Yes it is a stretch ---but a valid one? ---we are both saying the same thing---that the European-American settlers did not want to assimilate to others but want others to assimilate to them. They want others to do what they themselves were unwilling to do (and are still unwilling to do).
                        It is understandable that people want to retain their cultural identities---So if European-Americans acknowledge this privilege for themselves---they should allow it for others too....its only fair (golden rule)....?...

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                          It was completely different. For many Christian settlers the Americas were the new Israel and therefore they had no qualms about applying the biblical accounts of the [supposed] eradication of the indigenous peoples of Canaan. Smiting the heathens was divinely sanctioned.
                          Whats this about?...can you elaborate?

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by siam View Post

                            Yes it is a stretch ---but a valid one? ---we are both saying the same thing---that the European-American settlers did not want to assimilate to others but want others to assimilate to them. They want others to do what they themselves were unwilling to do (and are still unwilling to do).
                            It is understandable that people want to retain their cultural identities---So if European-Americans acknowledge this privilege for themselves---they should allow it for others too....its only fair (golden rule)....?...
                            Its not a valid one.

                            And, at this point the usa is settled, there 8s no its only fair argument to be made.

                            If immigrants are coming to join our country, assimilation is good..
                            if,, like our european ancestors, they are coming as colonizers then we should fight them as invaders.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by siam View Post

                              Yes it is a stretch ---but a valid one? ---we are both saying the same thing---that the European-American settlers did not want to assimilate to others but want others to assimilate to them. They want others to do what they themselves were unwilling to do (and are still unwilling to do).
                              It is understandable that people want to retain their cultural identities---So if European-Americans acknowledge this privilege for themselves---they should allow it for others too....its only fair (golden rule)....?...
                              Unfortunately, European Christians have for several centuries, considered their culture and religion to be superior to the heathens into whose countries they came by force and upon whom they imposed their views.

                              In the British Raj "going native" was often a term of abuse. I do not know where you live but if you are interested a polemical but very interesting read is Shashi Tharoor's Inglorious Empire: What the British Did to India.
                              "It ain't necessarily so
                              The things that you're liable
                              To read in the Bible
                              It ain't necessarily so
                              ."

                              Sportin' Life
                              Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by siam View Post

                                Yes it is a stretch ---but a valid one? ---we are both saying the same thing---that the European-American settlers did not want to assimilate to others but want others to assimilate to them. They want others to do what they themselves were unwilling to do (and are still unwilling to do).
                                It is understandable that people want to retain their cultural identities---So if European-Americans acknowledge this privilege for themselves---they should allow it for others too....its only fair (golden rule)....?...
                                Now that I'm not on my phone, let me give a better answer.

                                It is not a valid stretch. Nor is it a valid comparison. This is a common argument that I see. Something in the long past (i.e. pretty much everyone involved is dead, at least a generation) happened, but we want to make arguments under the fantasy that the thing that happened, should have happened differently.. European settlers came as colonizers. I don't deny it, nor do I condone their behavior when they got here. They did some pretty terrible things to the natives who didn't want to be destroyed.

                                Having said that, that is now the settled past. We can't change it, agree or disagree. At this point to say that our standards should be one thing because the long past did it that way, is a bad idea.

                                So, with regards to assimilation, Settlers did not, regardless of what the feelings are. They came as colonizers, perhaps even conqurers/conqurer's light. That is not what immigrants today are doing.
                                They are coming to JOIN/VISIT an already existing country. If they are not coming to join the country, but are not simply visiting, then they should be treated as hostile. If they are visiting (i.e. guest workers), I don't care whether they assimilate. If they are trying to join the country, then yes, they need to assimilate to the existing culture (The same is true of US Ex-pats in other countries).

                                Comment

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