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The USA and "Anglo-Saxon traditions".

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  • #61
    Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

    Here, you'd be really stretch what was meant by "influence" to get to there. At this point, it no longer means what it would have meant in the original suggestion. (I.E. Our culture has taken parts of thier culture and integrated it into our own).
    Perhaps so---but what we might understand as "European heritage" developed within the context of Christianity?...it may have taken some presumptions of the Christian paradigm---but its development was also in part a reaction to Christianity? One might also see this in the Protestant movement?....etc?
    Post-colonialism. post-modernism etc are also reactionary constructs and therefore were "influenced" by the previous ideas/movements?

    Perhaps both ways of analyses---seeing the details and seeing the whole---are complementary ways of understanding our world?

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    • #62
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      More reasonable folk might call that elaborating on the point made. Hence the Johnny Appleseed link and reference which you omitted.
      You repeated what has already been noted with regard to the apple.

      The Johnny Appleseed comment and link would quite easily have "stood alone".
      "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by siam View Post

        I agree...but....
        The definition of "immigrant" is general enough that it can be stretched ?....
        im∑mi∑grant
        noun
        1. a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.
        Nevertheless...since the justification of colonization enterprise was to "bring civilization" to the "Heathens" (non-Christians/Non Europeans)---there was definitively an embedded attitude of arrogant superiority.....which...if I have not misunderstood...you have reproduced in your comment of ...."you just showed the danger of not requiring assimilation"...?...I presume you agree to the superiority of the "European heritage" culture?... and that had they "assimilated" to the Native Indian culture, it would have been a great loss to humanity?

        I can understand. Ofcourse everyone thinks their culture is the best...it is natural. But if everyone thinks this way---how do we manage when 2 (or more) different cultures meet/confront?

        Perhaps by re-imagining the concept of "identity" and the nature of our attachment --Some of our presumptions are that a) cultural identity is static (remains the same over a long period of time), b) cultural identity attachment defines who "we" are. c) cultural identity attachment (tribe) is zero-sum (winner/loser)
        What if we change our assumptions?....a) cultural identity is generational, therefore subject to change b) cultural identity is one of many identity constructs that can define "us" c) cultural identity attachments need not be zero-sum---can harmonize, syncretize or create new cultural identities.

        If we look at our most basic social building block---which is family----we can see some of these dynamics play out. As families come together and change with each generation we have examples of how we might construct presumptions of larger social structures?.....
        What I meant was simple. You said Europeans didn't assimilate to the local culture. Look at the state of those cultures now. They've been decimated.

        Hence you have made the point clear that any culture would find immigrants not assimilating as dangerous.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

          What I meant was simple. You said Europeans didn't assimilate to the local culture. Look at the state of those cultures now. They've been decimated.
          That tends to happen when less technologically advanced cultures come into contact with firearms.
          "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
            That tends to happen when less technologically advanced cultures come into contact with firearms.
            That goes back to why I said that Europeans didn't come over as "immigrants" but as "colonizers". They didn't come to join a country, they came to expand their own, and the other cultures were in the way.

            (Basically, I think comparing European colonizers to modern day immigrants is very much an apples/oranges comparison)

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

              You repeated what has already been noted with regard to the apple.

              The Johnny Appleseed comment and link would quite easily have "stood alone".
              Thank you for your unsolicited for a reason advice.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

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              • #67
                Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                That tends to happen when less technologically advanced cultures come into contact with firearms.
                That tends to happen when less technologically advanced cultures come into contact with more technologically advanced cultures even when the former had possession of firearms.

                It wasn't uncommon at several points for the Native Americans that the U.S. Cavalry encountered to actually have newer, more modern rifles than what they themselves were equipped with. For instance, at the Battle of Little Big Horn, Custer and his men were armed with single action firearms whereas the Lakota and Cheyenne had a large number of repeating rifles.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  Thank you for your unsolicited for a reason advice.
                  Gern geschehen!
                  "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                    That goes back to why I said that Europeans didn't come over as "immigrants" but as "colonizers"..
                    Trading posts were established which would be extended leading to sections of the Eastern seaboard becoming colonised.

                    Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
                    (Basically, I think comparing European colonizers to modern day immigrants is very much an apples/oranges comparison)
                    It could be contended that the Pilgrim Fathers were nothing but economic migrants looking for a better life. Precisely the reason so many still try and get to the USA.

                    The traditional belief they fled religious persecution is not really borne out because they had already left England and were in the Netherlands where they were free to practise their religious beliefs.

                    However, their level of poverty combined with the existence of English colonies in the New World may have played a part in their seeking a better future for themselves and their families.

                    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                      Trading posts were established which would be extended leading to sections of the Eastern seaboard becoming colonised.

                      It could be contended that the Pilgrim Fathers were nothing but economic migrants looking for a better life. Precisely the reason so many still try and get to the USA.

                      The traditional belief they fled religious persecution is not really borne out because they had already left England and were in the Netherlands where they were free to practise their religious beliefs.

                      However, their level of poverty combined with the existence of English colonies in the New World may have played a part in their seeking a better future for themselves and their families.
                      The mindset was quite different though. The "new world" was seen, as largely unclaimed land, ripe for someone to come in and settle on. Compare that to modern day immigrants who are moving into a (known and understood) sovereign country. It creates two very different dynamics and mindsets.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                        Trading posts were established which would be extended leading to sections of the Eastern seaboard becoming colonised.

                        It could be contended that the Pilgrim Fathers were nothing but economic migrants looking for a better life. Precisely the reason so many still try and get to the USA.

                        The traditional belief they fled religious persecution is not really borne out because they had already left England and were in the Netherlands where they were free to practise their religious beliefs.

                        However, their level of poverty combined with the existence of English colonies in the New World may have played a part in their seeking a better future for themselves and their families.
                        The Pilgrims and Puritans came not seeking a "better life" which typically is inextricably to economic opportunities. They came in search of a place to practice their religious beliefs without interference. While they were indeed free in Denmark to practice their beliefs an entirely new problem emerged. People started adapting and adopting customs and practices that did not mesh well with their beliefs. So they sought a place where they could practice in peace free of outside interference and influence. By doing so they actually sacrificed the economic stability that they enjoyed in Denmark and traded it for a decided uncertainty.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          The Pilgrims and Puritans came not seeking a "better life" which typically is inextricably to economic opportunities. They came in search of a place to practice their religious beliefs without interference.
                          The oft-called Pilgrim Fathers had no need to find "a place to practice their religious beliefs without interference". They already had found one in the Netherlands where they had the freedom to do precisely that.

                          Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          While they were indeed free in Denmark to practice their beliefs an entirely new problem emerged. People started adapting and adopting customs and practices that did not mesh well with their beliefs. So they sought a place where they could practice in peace free of outside interference and influence. By doing so they actually sacrificed the economic stability that they enjoyed in Denmark and traded it for a decided uncertainty.
                          Pardon?

                          "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                            The oft-called Pilgrim Fathers had no need to find "a place to practice their religious beliefs without interference". They already had found one in the Netherlands where they had the freedom to do precisely that.
                            That is actually a statement more or less on a par with those that didn't see a need to remove 'separate but equal' in the '60s.

                            When one is trying to live one's life according to certain principles, and even more so raising ones children in an environment that is pulling day after day contrary to your morals and beliefs, it presents a struggle that is not easy to overcome. Seeking out a place to create an ideal environment free from influences that would undermine one's efforts to live out one's life in accordance with one's religion is a common occurrence and more than that, is a natural human response to such an situation. Trivializing it and declaring it could not possibly have been a motivating factor for the pilgrims is a bit absurd. That IS why they came. That is in fact what many of them did.









                            Mockery is the argument of the mentally and/or emotionally challenged.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                              The oft-called Pilgrim Fathers had no need to find "a place to practice their religious beliefs without interference". They already had found one in the Netherlands where they had the freedom to do precisely that.

                              Pardon?
                              Wrong. What they found in Denmark was, in a sense, a place that was "too free." What I mean by that is that everyone was allowed to do so which they found was "polluting" their own teachings. That's why they left Amsterdam and thereabouts and headed to the New World. A place where they could practice their religion without any sort of interference. They wanted a place for like-minded co-religionists to be able to go and live where everything was based upon their ideals and certainly not somewhere where your one neighbor is a Catholic and the other is a Huguenot.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                Wrong.
                                You are. What has Denmark to do with Amsterdam?
                                "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                                Comment

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