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The USA and "Anglo-Saxon traditions".

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  • #46
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    Jamestown was in Virginia, earlier Spanish attempts failed and disappeared and folks had been moving into the Carolinas from other colonies for various reasons well before Hyde and his buddies obtained an official charter from Charles II to settle it.
    What "British" traditions do you consider would have been found among the Jamestown settlers? And how many of the first settlers came from Scotland or Ireland?
    "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

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    • #47
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      Native Americans are also immigrants. They just came earlier.

      And this is a discussion about the culture of the U.S.A., which without Europeans wouldn't exist. And the original culture of the U.S.A. has its foundation in Anglo-Saxon, or if you prefer, British, tradition.
      Native Amercians/First Nations---Yes, it seems so...but if we use that argument---then Europeans in Europe are also immigrants---after all, we all migrated from Africa?

      Original culture---I still maintain that the original culture is that of NA/FN peoples. Some cultural "myths" may be encouraged/sponsored by the government---the government housing policy gave European-Americans wealth/assets that advantaged them over non-whites...
      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...white-suburbia
      ...which in turn led to other myths such as "the American dream" and "hard work as the road to success"...etc. The whole WASP "cultural image"---house, car, wife at home, happy kids ---was a feel-good story.

      One could also say, influences originated from non-WASP sources but became "American" (European-American) when they adopted/appropriated it?.... Surfing (Hawaii,) Jazz (African-American), Cajun food (French) Creole food (mixed)...and so much more....
      Even the wars fought by the U.S. ---including the "American" Revolution had major contributions from African-Americans and Native-Americans--though these are not celebrated to the extent the "Anglo-Saxon" (Wasp) achievements are...
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa...cated%20troops.

      IMO, European-Americans have done a good job of mixing various cultural influences to come up with an image/ideal that is distinctively "American". Speaking as someone outside of the U.S.---I like Hollywood movies and "American" music. American creativity belongs to all groups of peoples and it would be a disservice to attribute it to just one group as a feel-good myth/story.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

        What "British" traditions do you consider would have been found among the Jamestown settlers? And how many of the first settlers came from Scotland or Ireland?
        One similarity between British food culture and American food culture is the use of apples for desert?---apple crumble and apple pie...?.... was one influenced by the other?...anyone know?

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        • #49
          Originally posted by siam View Post

          Native Amercians/First Nations---Yes, it seems so...but if we use that argument---then Europeans in Europe are also immigrants---after all, we all migrated from Africa?

          Original culture---I still maintain that the original culture is that of NA/FN peoples. Some cultural "myths" may be encouraged/sponsored by the government---the government housing policy gave European-Americans wealth/assets that advantaged them over non-whites...
          https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...white-suburbia
          ...which in turn led to other myths such as "the American dream" and "hard work as the road to success"...etc. The whole WASP "cultural image"---house, car, wife at home, happy kids ---was a feel-good story.

          One could also say, influences originated from non-WASP sources but became "American" (European-American) when they adopted/appropriated it?.... Surfing (Hawaii,) Jazz (African-American), Cajun food (French) Creole food (mixed)...and so much more....
          Even the wars fought by the U.S. ---including the "American" Revolution had major contributions from African-Americans and Native-Americans--though these are not celebrated to the extent the "Anglo-Saxon" (Wasp) achievements are...
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa...cated%20troops.

          IMO, European-Americans have done a good job of mixing various cultural influences to come up with an image/ideal that is distinctively "American". Speaking as someone outside of the U.S.---I like Hollywood movies and "American" music. American creativity belongs to all groups of peoples and it would be a disservice to attribute it to just one group as a feel-good myth/story.
          The indigenous peoples might have been the first cultures in NA, but, given our history, you would be hard pressed to say much of our culture came from them.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by siam View Post

            One similarity between British food culture and American food culture is the use of apples for desert?---apple crumble and apple pie...?.... was one influenced by the other?...anyone know?
            There are also numerous mainland European recipes that use apples including alcoholic drinks such as Cider and Calvados.

            I understand that Applejack is similar in some respects to Calvados.
            "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

              The indigenous peoples might have been the first cultures in NA, but, given our history, you would be hard pressed to say much of our culture came from them.
              It definitely had some influences -- especially for those on the frontiers. For those in the large cities... not so much.

              Awhile back there was an attempt to highlight these influences which unfortunately led to numerous wild exaggerations and outright false claims -- like the one that the Constitution is largely grounded in concepts expressed by the "Seven Nations" or Iroquois Confederacy.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

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              • #52
                Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                The indigenous peoples might have been the first cultures in NA, but, given our history, you would be hard pressed to say much of our culture came from them.
                True---but that would be because European-American "immigrants" refused to "assimilate" to the "original" cultures and instead insisted on following their own----an issue some of them complain about when other immigrants try to do the same.....?....

                Also...if we define "culture" loosely and include those aspects that formed as a reaction---then U.S. gun "culture" and Movies such as American "Westerns" might qualify as reactionary culture to the presence of Native Americans?...If so, one might at least be able to point to indirect influence?

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
                  There are also numerous mainland European recipes that use apples including alcoholic drinks such as Cider and Calvados.

                  I understand that Applejack is similar in some respects to Calvados.
                  interesting....
                  Calvados---made in France in 911 ...!!..

                  Apparently apples originate from Central Asia---around Kazakhstan. So the signature dish of the U.S. is made from fruit from C.Asia---seems fitting....

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by siam View Post

                    True---but that would be because European-American "immigrants" refused to "assimilate" to the "original" cultures and instead insisted on following their own----an issue some of them complain about when other immigrants try to do the same....?
                    Let's be specific. The settlers were not immigrants they were colonizers. They didn't come to join the country that was here, they sought to make here part of thier country. That's a big and different mindset.

                    But if we take what you say at face value, you just showed the danger of not requiring assimilation.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by siam View Post

                      Also...if we define "culture" loosely and include those aspects that formed as a reaction---then U.S. gun "culture" and Movies such as American "Westerns" might qualify as reactionary culture to the presence of Native Americans?...If so, one might at least be able to point to indirect influence?
                      Here, you'd be really stretch what was meant by "influence" to get to there. At this point, it no longer means what it would have meant in the original suggestion. (I.E. Our culture has taken parts of thier culture and integrated it into our own).

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by siam View Post

                        interesting....
                        Calvados---made in France in 911 ...!!..

                        Apparently apples originate from Central Asia---around Kazakhstan. So the signature dish of the U.S. is made from fruit from C.Asia---seems fitting....
                        As American as Apple Pie takes on a whole new subtext!
                        "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by siam View Post

                          interesting....
                          Calvados---made in France in 911 ...!!..

                          Apparently apples originate from Central Asia---around Kazakhstan. So the signature dish of the U.S. is made from fruit from C.Asia---seems fitting....
                          Apples are not indigenous to the Americas and were brought over by Europeans a little over 200 years ago.

                          Perhaps you've heard of "Johnny Appleseed," who unlike so many legendary people from that time was a real person.

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            Apples are not indigenous to the Americas and were brought over by Europeans a little over 200 years ago.

                            It would appear that you are "mansplaining". siam already knew all that. Hence his/her remark about apples originating in Central Asia.
                            "Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful" Attrib. Seneca 4 BCE - 65 CE

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                              It would appear that you are "mansplaining". siam already knew all that. Hence his/her remark about apples originating in Central Asia.
                              More reasonable folk might call that elaborating on the point made. Hence the Johnny Appleseed link and reference which you omitted.

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization thatís not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                                Let's be specific. The settlers were not immigrants they were colonizers. They didn't come to join the country that was here, they sought to make here part of thier country. That's a big and different mindset.

                                But if we take what you say at face value, you just showed the danger of not requiring assimilation.
                                I agree...but....
                                The definition of "immigrant" is general enough that it can be stretched ?....
                                im∑mi∑grant
                                noun
                                1. a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.
                                Nevertheless...since the justification of colonization enterprise was to "bring civilization" to the "Heathens" (non-Christians/Non Europeans)---there was definitively an embedded attitude of arrogant superiority.....which...if I have not misunderstood...you have reproduced in your comment of ...."you just showed the danger of not requiring assimilation"...?...I presume you agree to the superiority of the "European heritage" culture?... and that had they "assimilated" to the Native Indian culture, it would have been a great loss to humanity?

                                I can understand. Ofcourse everyone thinks their culture is the best...it is natural. But if everyone thinks this way---how do we manage when 2 (or more) different cultures meet/confront?

                                Perhaps by re-imagining the concept of "identity" and the nature of our attachment --Some of our presumptions are that a) cultural identity is static (remains the same over a long period of time), b) cultural identity attachment defines who "we" are. c) cultural identity attachment (tribe) is zero-sum (winner/loser)
                                What if we change our assumptions?....a) cultural identity is generational, therefore subject to change b) cultural identity is one of many identity constructs that can define "us" c) cultural identity attachments need not be zero-sum---can harmonize, syncretize or create new cultural identities.

                                If we look at our most basic social building block---which is family----we can see some of these dynamics play out. As families come together and change with each generation we have examples of how we might construct presumptions of larger social structures?.....

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