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Sanjay Gupta goes rogue

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  • #16
    Btw -- just because I get a thrill doing it -- let me reiterate an uncomfortable fact I pointed out in another thread, that could present an awkward situation for Fauci and all his fans, especially those that also admire Gupta.

    Fauci's organization that he was head of, the NIAID (I'm being specific here so the semantic nazis won't say I misrepresenting this fact), in 2014 and again in 2019 was funding very controversial "gain-of-function" coronavirus research, research he was apparently a staunch supporter of himself, at the same Wuhan lab that Gupta's conspiracy theory is swirling around.

    That's a bit of an uncomfortable reality about our lovable national medical expert, and I can see why there would be a strong tendency to want to sweep Gupta's theory under the rug or dismiss it outrightly. Can you just imagine the implication of a guy we dub our national medical hero if the government institute that he directed had been funding highly dangerous coronavirus research at the very same lab responsible for bringing such havoc and death into our world?

    Ouch.
    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      And often not even right that often

      istockphoto-177266866-1024x1024.jpg

      A stopped watch OTOH...
      I'll take you correction as factual yet inordinately pedantic
      He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

      "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

        I'll take you correction as factual yet inordinately pedantic
        ab4859e0-0642-4050-861a-b8e093c44a04.jpg

        But it's actually one of those little things that bugs me.

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

          There is a difference between an idea that has a basis in fact and an idea drawn from the dairy-air sourced in paranoia. Even when it's the exact same idea. A broken watch is right twice a day, but you need a working watch to know when.
          This doesn't make much sense to me. Suggesting it escaped from the Wuhan lab, an initial theory that was being endorsed mainly by the political right (including Pompeo who we can imagine would have had exclusive intel about it), was for the most part just using basic logic, or as Gupta put it, using Occam's razor. The idea it jumped from a bat to a human at a wet market and rapidly spread throughout the world just seemed like an absurd theory.
          "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by seanD View Post
            Btw -- just because I get a thrill doing it -- let me reiterate an uncomfortable fact I pointed out in another thread, that could present an awkward situation for Fauci and all his fans, especially those that also admire Gupta.

            Fauci's organization that he was head of, the NIAID (I'm being specific here so the semantic nazis won't say I misrepresenting this fact), in 2014 and again in 2019 was funding very controversial "gain-of-function" coronavirus research, research he was apparently a staunch supporter of himself, at the same Wuhan lab that Gupta's conspiracy theory is swirling around.

            That's a bit of an uncomfortable reality about our lovable national medical expert, and I can see why there would be a strong tendency to want to sweep Gupta's theory under the rug or dismiss it outrightly. Can you just imagine the implication of a guy we dub our national medical hero if the government institute that he directed had been funding highly dangerous coronavirus research at the very same lab responsible for bringing such havoc and death into our world?

            Ouch.
            I'm not going down the 'Fauci is evil' road. That's a crazy right wing paranoia thing and right now we have far too much of that on both sides.

            However, if and when there are facts to robustly tie covid-19 to Wuhan research, then we can take this off the shelf of unsubstantiated rumor or conspiracy. The fact the Wuhan lab was doing coronovirus research will always leave the door open to suspicion it was released accidentally (the fact covid-19 as often as not is asymptomatic would also play into the fact it took a while to figure out it had gotten out - if it did).

            However, AFAIK, that research was being done there because such coronavirus's are in the indigenous animal populations, and there had already been a natural jump from animals to humans (SARS-COVID-1) in china/hong kong. So the paranoia about the Wuhan lab has just enough real world connection for it to get legs and run - all the more reason we need to take the more rational approach and look for real data. So far, per those that should know - excepting Redfield - the data points to a natural origin. Could there be some bias in that assessment? Always a possibility. Does the skeptic in me think it's possible it escaped that lab accidentally - yes. Will I act on that suspicion without real facts - No. Will I curse Chinese people and Asians even if it turns out to be true? No.
            He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

            "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

              ab4859e0-0642-4050-861a-b8e093c44a04.jpg

              But it's actually one of those little things that bugs me.
              Do unto others as you would NOT have them do to you?
              Last edited by oxmixmudd; 04-14-2021, 01:37 PM.
              He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

              "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by seanD View Post

                This doesn't make much sense to me. Suggesting it escaped from the Wuhan lab, an initial theory that was being endorsed mainly by the political right (including Pompeo who we can imagine would have had exclusive intel about it), was for the most part just using basic logic, or as Gupta put it, using Occam's razor. The idea it jumped from a bat to a human at a wet market and rapidly spread throughout the world just seemed like an absurd theory.
                Innocent till proven guilty is a principle we claim to live by - yes?

                I agree lab escape was a possibility. But so was it possible that it jumped from animal to human - as virus' have done in the past, and as they will continue to do in the future. It seems perhaps absurd to you maybe just out of ignorance wrt it's likelihood? Consider HIV, believed to have jumped from Monkey to man, but likewise there are no shortage of conspiracy theories about it's own man-made origin.

                So it's not as absurd as you think. And given the wet markets it's even a likely thing given the history. So generally when there exist multiple possible sources, one doesn't start out with a rash and unsubstantiated accusation of a foreign government.
                He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                  I'm not going down the 'Fauci is evil' road. That's a crazy right wing paranoia thing and right now we have far too much of that on both sides.

                  However, if and when there are facts to robustly tie covid-19 to Wuhan research, then we can take this off the shelf of unsubstantiated rumor or conspiracy. The fact the Wuhan lab was doing coronovirus research will always leave the door open to suspicion it was released accidentally (the fact covid-19 as often as not is asymptomatic would also play into the fact it took a while to figure out it had gotten out - if it did).

                  However, AFAIK, that research was being done there because such coronavirus's are in the indigenous animal populations, and there had already been a natural jump from animals to humans (SARS-COVID-1) in china/hong kong. So the paranoia about the Wuhan lab has just enough real world connection for it to get legs and run - all the more reason we need to take the more rational approach and look for real data. So far, per those that should know - excepting Redfield - the data points to a natural origin. Could there be some bias in that assessment? Always a possibility. Does the skeptic in me think it's possible it escaped that lab accidentally - yes. Will I act on that suspicion without real facts - No. Will I curse Chinese people and Asians even if it turns out to be true? No.
                  Spin, baby, spin.

                  I like how you guys are pinning this solely on Redfield. Gupta was pushing it as well with his own opinions about it. Listen to the interview. What's yet another takeaway about the interview is that Gupta said that since Redfield wasn't a government employee, he was "unbridled" about that view, implying government's propensity to hide these matters from the public.
                  "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                    Innocent till proven guilty is a principle we claim to live by - yes?

                    I agree lab escape was a possibility. But so was it possible that it jumped from animal to human - as virus' have done in the past, and as they will continue to do in the future. It seems perhaps absurd to you maybe just out of ignorance wrt it's likelihood? Consider HIV, believed to have jumped from Monkey to man, but likewise there are no shortage of conspiracy theories about it's own man-made origin.

                    So it's not as absurd as you think. And given the wet markets it's even a likely thing given the history. So generally when there exist multiple possible sources, one doesn't start out with a rash and unsubstantiated accusation of a foreign government.
                    Not absurd to me, but apparently to Redfield. And you say it's a "possibility." He says "most likely."

                    "I don't believe this somehow came from a bat to a human," he said. Usually, it takes awhile to become more efficient in human-to-human transmission.

                    "I just don't think this makes biological sense," said Redfield, a virologist.

                    The most likely etiology is the virus escaped from a lab, he said. It's not unusual for respiratory pathogens to infect laboratory workers. Redfield said he was not implying any intentionality to the escape of the virus.
                    Being that he's an actual experienced expert and you're just some anonymous partisan schmoe on the internet, I'll take his word over yours.

                    "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                      Do unto others as you would NOT have them do to you?


                      Being cavil is being pedantic in order to be a jerk. This is actually one of those stupid little things that irritate me.

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post


                        Being cavil is being pedantic in order to be a jerk. This is actually one of those stupid little things that irritate me.
                        On those extremely rare occasions, just when I look forward to Ox engaging in a discussion that gives me a personal thrill, he gone up and disappears.
                        "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by seanD View Post

                          Not absurd to me, but apparently to Redfield. And you say it's a "possibility." He says "most likely."



                          Being that he's an actual experienced expert and you're just some anonymous partisan schmoe on the internet, I'll take his word over yours.
                          I'll take Fauci's word over Redfield's any day.


                          Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/26/science/redfield-coronavirus-wuhan-lab.html


                          When Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, the United States’ top infectious disease expert, was asked at a White House news conference on the pandemic on Friday about Dr. Redfield’s comments, he noted that the remarks were only an opinion. Dr. Fauci said that there are different ways viruses could become adapted to humans.

                          “You know one of them is in the lab and one of them, which is the more likely, which most public health officials agree with, is that it likely was below the radar screen, spreading in the community in China for several weeks if not a month or more, which allowed it, when it first got recognized clinically to be pretty well adapted,” Dr. Fauci said.

                          © Copyright Original Source


                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Stoic View Post

                            I'll take Fauci's word over Redfield's any day.


                            Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/26/science/redfield-coronavirus-wuhan-lab.html


                            When Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, the United States’ top infectious disease expert, was asked at a White House news conference on the pandemic on Friday about Dr. Redfield’s comments, he noted that the remarks were only an opinion. Dr. Fauci said that there are different ways viruses could become adapted to humans.

                            “You know one of them is in the lab and one of them, which is the more likely, which most public health officials agree with, is that it likely was below the radar screen, spreading in the community in China for several weeks if not a month or more, which allowed it, when it first got recognized clinically to be pretty well adapted,” Dr. Fauci said.

                            © Copyright Original Source


                            Why do I not find that surprising.

                            There's a bit of conflict of interest though...

                            Originally posted by seanD View Post
                            Btw -- just because I get a thrill doing it -- let me reiterate an uncomfortable fact I pointed out in another thread, that could present an awkward situation for Fauci and all his fans, especially those that also admire Gupta.

                            Fauci's organization that he was head of, the NIAID (I'm being specific here so the semantic nazis won't say I misrepresenting this fact), in 2014 and again in 2019 was funding very controversial "gain-of-function" coronavirus research, research he was apparently a staunch supporter of himself, at the same Wuhan lab that Gupta's conspiracy theory is swirling around.

                            That's a bit of an uncomfortable reality about our lovable national medical expert, and I can see why there would be a strong tendency to want to sweep Gupta's theory under the rug or dismiss it outrightly. Can you just imagine the implication of a guy we dub our national medical hero if the government institute that he directed had been funding highly dangerous coronavirus research at the very same lab responsible for bringing such havoc and death into our world?

                            Ouch.
                            When damage control would obviously be in Fauci's best interest, I'll go with Redfield and Gupta.
                            "I was the CIA director. We lied, we cheated, we stole, it was like... we had entire training courses. It reminds you of the glory of the American experiment." - Mike Pompeo, Secretary of State (source).

                            Comment

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