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  • #46
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

    This always has to go back to that.

    No, it's not her FAULT for getting raped, but if I love my daughter - and I love both of them - I'm going to do everything in my power to help them understand the risks that get significantly greater when a woman is intoxicated around men.

    Just like if I were the father of a black man --- I AGREE that "the talk" should NOT be necessary --- but if I love my black son, I'm going to do my best to help him understand that the risks get significantly greater when he resists in a police action.
    Absolutely. But once risk mitigation fails, the fact that someone did/did not mitigate their risk isn't really relevant.

    In other words, if your daughter WAS raped, you wouldn't be overly concerned about whether they got drunk, you would be concerned with punishing the rapist.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post
      Absolutely. But once risk mitigation fails, the fact that someone did/did not mitigate their risk isn't really relevant.
      Yet, we humans are slaves of the "woulda coulda shoulda".

      In other words, if your daughter WAS raped, you wouldn't be overly concerned about whether they got drunk, you would be concerned with punishing the rapist.
      Actually, I'd be more concerned about my daughter's wellbeing, physically, emotionally and spiritually, but, yeah --- I would most certainly want her rapist attacked. But for compound reasons --- a rapist isn't likely to rape only once, and it could well prevent future rapes, and identify previous victims.

      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

        Again, His resistance matters only so far as he caused force to be applied. Once it has, his resistance no longer matters, it becomes a question of whether or not the appropriate amount was used.

        Would you tell a raped girl that "It's on you, you shouldn't have gotten drunk."
        The fact is, bad things can happen when you exercise poor judgment. The takeaway from your example is "Never get blackout drunk."
        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
        Than a fool in the eyes of God


        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          The fact is, bad things can happen when you exercise poor judgment. The takeaway from your example is "Never get blackout drunk."
          And simple things like - if you're a girl in a bar, never leave your drink unattended, and only accept a drink straight from the bartender or authorized agent - never from somebody you don't know handing you an open container or glass. It's a shame that you have to know these things, but it's part of "living in the jungle".
          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

            The fact is, bad things can happen when you exercise poor judgment. The takeaway from your example is "Never get blackout drunk."
            Absolutely. Never denied that. But there's a fine line. Telling women to avoid getting blackout drunk is good advice. Telling a woman who was raped that "she shouldn't have gotten black out drunk" just shifts the blame from the rapist onto her.

            A victim of excessive force IS a victim, regardless of whether that force was brought on by their non-compliance. The only time the blame shifts back onto the target is when the force was reasonable given the situation.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

              Absolutely. Never denied that. But there's a fine line. Telling women to avoid getting blackout drunk is good advice. Telling a woman who was raped that "she shouldn't have gotten black out drunk" just shifts the blame from the rapist onto her.

              A victim of excessive force IS a victim, regardless of whether that force was brought on by their non-compliance. The only time the blame shifts back onto the target is when the force was reasonable given the situation.
              Yes, we should avoid blaming the victim, but we shouldn't flip the other way and completely absolve them, either. A girl who goes to a party with a bunch of strangers and gets blackout drunk made a series of poor choices that created the opportunity for the rapist, an opportunity he wouldn't have had if she had made different choices. That's not blaming the victim, that's a simple statement of fact.

              In this case, the suspect willfully and needlessly created a stressful situation, and the officer made a grave mistake as a result of that stress. Those are the facts.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                The fact is, bad things can happen when you exercise poor judgment. The takeaway from your example is "Never get blackout drunk."
                That advice would also apply to the man who wears an expensive watch.
                But having your watch stolen is much less traumatic than getting raped.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post

                  Yes, we should avoid blaming the victim, but we shouldn't flip the other way and completely absolve them, either. A girl who goes to a party with a bunch of strangers and gets blackout drunk made a series of poor choices that created the opportunity for the rapist, an opportunity he wouldn't have had if she had made different choices. That's not blaming the victim, that's a simple statement of fact.

                  In this case, the suspect willfully and needlessly created a stressful situation, and the officer made a grave mistake as a result of that stress. Those are the facts.
                  It turns out that a lot of women are raped by acquaintances. So should a woman not drink when she goes to a party with people she thinks are friends?

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by kccd View Post

                    That advice would also apply to the man who wears an expensive watch.
                    But having your watch stolen is much less traumatic than getting raped.
                    Sure, you could propose deliberately unequal hypotheticals and pretend you said something meaningful.
                    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                    Than a fool in the eyes of God


                    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by kccd View Post

                      It turns out that a lot of women are raped by acquaintances. So should a woman not drink when she goes to a party with people she thinks are friends?
                      Why did you leave out the part about getting blackout drunk?
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by kccd View Post

                        It turns out that a lot of women are raped by acquaintances. So should a woman not drink when she goes to a party with people she thinks are friends?
                        Whether you're with friends, strangers, enemies, or by yourself, you really shouldn't ever be drinking so much you get blackout drunk.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by kccd View Post

                          It turns out that a lot of women are raped by acquaintances. So should a woman not drink when she goes to a party with people she thinks are friends?
                          There's a difference between getting blacked-out drunk and drinking with friends - but I would advise the same - do not leave your drink unattended, don't accept a drink from a stranger, and watch your intake. Know your metabolism and what you can reasonably process.
                          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                            Whether you're with friends, strangers, enemies, or by yourself, you really shouldn't ever be drinking so much you get blackout drunk.
                            Period!
                            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by CivilDiscourse View Post

                              That's not the important question. The important question is whether his level of resistance and danger necessitate the amount of force exercised. Your question is akin to saying

                              "If the raped girl did not get passed out drunk, would she have been raped? Yes or No? "

                              Sure, her not getting passed out drunk might have saved her from being raped, but it doesn't actually address the rapist or their actions.
                              False equivalence. Some fool getting "passed out drunk" is neither the same level nor kind of foolishness as "resisting arrest."
                              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                              Beige Nationalist.

                              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                                This always has to go back to that.

                                No, it's not her FAULT for getting raped, but if I love my daughter - and I love both of them - I'm going to do everything in my power to help them understand the risks that get significantly greater when a woman is intoxicated around men.

                                Just like if I were the father of a black man --- I AGREE that "the talk" should NOT be necessary --- but if I love my black son, I'm going to do my best to help him understand that the risks get significantly greater when he resists in a police action.
                                I am a white, law-abiding male from a white, law-abiding family, and *I* was given "the talk" decades ago.

                                What should not be necessary is making "the talk" a matter of race or gender.
                                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                                Beige Nationalist.

                                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                                Comment

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