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It Took A Canadian Pastor...

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  • #91
    Originally posted by Reepicheep View Post
    My congregation is still meeting on Sunday morning, and our pastor hasn't been arrested. Why do you think this is?
    Did you know that during the height of the cold war, many churches - even Baptist Churches - in the Soviet Union were allowed to meet, and their pastors weren't removed?
    They just had to play the game the way the Soviets wanted them to play it.

    My friend, Georgi Vins, didn't play the game, and spent a lot of time in the Gulags.
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

    Comment


    • #92
      For several years Pew Research has been chronicling how Christianity was the most persecuted religion in the world but I wonder how many of thought we'd live to see how much this has spread in the West as well. Not the brutal suppression we can see in parts of Asia and Africa, but suppression just the same.

      Like what we're witnessing in Canada. Where more and more churches require the government's "seal of approval" or face being shut down. The there's...

      Source: Christians Are Now Being Targeted For ‘Polite Persecution’, Report Says


      Secularism, as a culture, is increasingly becoming hostile to Christianity in the West.

      The 2021 report on Religious Freedom in the World released by Aid to the Church in Need (ACN) reveals that there has been a rise in "political persecution" in the West. This new category of persecution comes in the form of "restrictive measures encoded in public policy and law" as worded by Bill Donohue, president of the Catholic League.


      "If Christians in the Middle East need to fear the machete, Christians in the Western world need to fear the media, higher education, activist
      organizations and government. They are the ones advocating, or imposing, a secular agenda on religious institutions,
      "he said.

      This "polite persecution," according to ACN, cloaks itself as a progressive or "enlightened" secularism.

      Donohue also contends that these subtle attacks against the faithful "may not be as immediate or acute, but they can be culturally lethal." This echo "the quiet obscurity of the individual conscience" stated by Pope Francis who is similarly concerned about how the new cultural norms and values are making it more difficult for people of faith to have a voice in the public square.

      WND noted that the Pope mentioned about "healthy pluralism" in his apostolic exhortation "Evangelii Gaudium" ("The Joy of the Gospel"). This kind of pluralism champions respect of differences and values by not "privatizing religions" or not relegating them to "the enclosed precincts of churches, synagogues or mosques." To do so would "represent, in effect, a new form of discrimination and authoritarianism."

      Things brings Christians to their present dilemma where a belief on traditional values is criminalized through legislation in the guise of promoting "equality." This is done through the broadening of the definition of "hate" and by reducing moral or religious conviction to "conservatism" which, to the secularist's mind, is outdated and obsolete. This mindset that's becoming more prevalent in public affects all Christians in general.

      Another alarming issue is the politicization in the education system. Concerned parents who would air their objections against particular subjects like sex education are constantly ignored by school administrators.

      Other examples mentioned in the report include the following:
      • The right to conscientious objection on religious grounds for health care professionals in relation to issues concerning abortion and euthanasia is no longer meaningfully protected in law.
      • Graduates from particular confessional universities are increasingly denied access to certain professions.
      • Provisions for the right of religious groups to run their own schools according to their own ethos are also in jeopardy in several countries.
      "Polite persecution' of religion may not put us in imminent danger, but in the long run, it can accomplish the same end," Donohue commented.

      Donohue also argued that starting or supporting campaigns to subvert the aforementioned should be in the interest of everyone that value religious freedom.

      Reflecting on their findings, ACN International President Dr. Thomas Heine-Geldern said that to date, "the international community's response to violence based on religion and religious persecution in general can be categorized as too little, too late."

      Heine-Geldern's observation could not be more clearer in the complacent attitudes of Western governments toward religious organizations. The recent scandals involving high-profile Christians have also complicated the fight for religious tolerance.


      Source

      © Copyright Original Source



      I should note that I'm not familiar with the group discussed but their findings does dovetail nicely into what Pew and several other groups have concluded.







      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • #93
        Originally posted by Reepicheep View Post

        Are you making the accusation, before God, that I am an enemy of Christ?
        what is with you and your idiotic demand to swear things before God?

        James 5:12
        But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes, and your no, no, so that you may not fall under judgment.

        Are you trying to condemn your fellow Christians with your demands that they swear an oath against you? Are you wanting to make them fall under judgment? Is that your game? If so, it shows how black your heart really is, and you will be the one under judgment. God sees into your mind and heart.
        Last edited by Sparko; 05-03-2021, 12:35 PM.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by Reepicheep View Post

          Are you accusing me of being an enemy of Christ and therefore outside the faith?
          I believe you perversely delight in baiting Christians.

          I believe you are the sort of person we are warned of in Rom. 16:17 and Tit. 3:10.

          I don't know whether you are currently "outside the faith," or merely headed in that direction.
          Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

          Beige Nationalist.

          "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

          Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

          Comment


          • #95
            Judge Denies Gov’t Request to Close Canadian Church That Has Defied COVID Orders

            https://harbingersdaily.com/judge-de...-covid-orders/
            Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

            Comment


            • #96
              But this, today. In the wake of new restrictions announced yesterday that limits the number of people in a church service to 15.

              https://www.rebelnews.com/pastor_paw...ource=therebel

              Rebel News has been telling Pastor Artur Pawlowski’s story since the beginning of his altercations with Calgary police and Alberta Health Services (AHS). In fact, he was our very first www.FightTheFines.com case.

              For his great crimes of… reading the Bible and feeding the homeless, Artur has made over 100 appearances in court over the last few years. He has been battling defiantly to maintain his ministry. Pastor Art will not back down, he will not stop worshipping, and he will not stop caring for the most vulnerable members of society.

              COVID-related restrictions have clearly magnified the efforts of Calgary police and AHS to shut down Pastor Art’s ministries. Thanks to our www.FightTheFines.com campaign, we were able to hire top-notch lawyer Sarah Miller, who managed to have a number of Artur’s tickets thrown out.

              The conflict escalated on Holy Saturday with the now-viral video of Pastor Artur ejecting AHS and Calgary police from his church. Authorities then obtained a special order permitting them to arrest Pastor Art in the middle of worship, which is a violation of Section 176(2) of the Criminal Code. Many feared that arrest was imminent for Pastor Art on Saturday, May 1, but hundreds showed up in support of the Polish pastor, and despite a heavy police presence, worship went on uninterrupted and Artur left a free man.

              The sense of victory and relief was short-lived. We have received a work order document that was given to Pastor Art which stipulates a standard that must be met by May 7 to prevent further action from being taken against the church building where Pastor Art presides. Pastor James Coates of GraceLife Church received a similar work order on December 17, and as we know, that situation wound up with the entire church fenced off and Pastor Coates serving 35 days in jail. Pastor Coates is currently in court, and many fear the same fate awaits Pastor Art.


              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

              Comment


              • #97
                IMG_1481.JPG


                Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Reepicheep View Post

                  "To protect the health and safety of Albertans, public health orders are legally-enforceable and fines can be issued for violations."

                  https://www.alberta.ca/covid-19-orde...gislation.aspx

                  ***********


                  Canadian Christians who are experiencing legal problems are experiencing those problems because they are breaking the law and NOT because they are Christian.

                  My congregation is Christian, and we are currently holding in-person weekly Sunday services. Why hasn't the government closed us down?
                  There is nothing you are advocating here that is contrary to Christian faith, or that is 'baiting' of Christians as you have been accused.

                  The issue of Christians obeying government laws, or refusing to obey them, is settled by understanding the criteria associated with each. It is not a black and white situation. The scripture gives us guidance, but it literally tells us to do both - but in difference contexts. And it is the context that tells us when we should obey government laws and when we should not.

                  When we obey:

                  We are commanded by Paul to - as much as is possible - be at peace with those around us. We are told, as Reepicheep noted and quoted, that the government exists for a reason, and that we are to obey its laws. It also tells us quite clearly that THERE IS NO REWARD for persecution or hardship that comes from violating government laws. It even says disobeying government laws is disobeying God:

                  Source: Roman 13:2

                  So those who refuse to obey the law of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow.[ESV]

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  When we do not obey:

                  We only disobey government authority when to do so would be to violate God's law. So - if the government is commanding us to do something that violates God's law, then we must obey God's law first. An example often used is when the disciples are confronted by the Jewish authorities over preaching the Gospel.

                  --

                  Most of those castigating you Reepicheep are acting as if the church's violating the health department laws are using American values of religious liberty as justification. But as I noted, Biblically we can only violate government law with a clear conscience before Him of we have violated His law. So then we'd only be justified before God doing so if the government is prohibiting us from gathering together or preaching the gospel. Are the government health department laws actually doing that? And those commandments do not exist in a vacuum. We are also commanded to be at peace with the world as much as possible, and we are also command to 'love our neighbor as ourselves'.

                  Covid then presents the perfect opportunity for conflict over these laws, and the Biblical commands.

                  Covid kills about 1% of the people it infects. And it often spreads before a person is aware they are sick, or sick enough to suspect Covid. That means that anyone that willfully creates an environment where the virus can spread easily if presenting a mortal threat to those around them. So when a church congregation meets and does not require masking or limit the number of people inside, they present a mortal thread to the people outside that church and in the community in which they live.


                  So with Covid floating about, that choice to meet together in violation of health department law then also violates

                  (1) Paul's command to obey the government
                  )2) Paul's admonition we be at peace with the world as much as possible
                  (3) God's command that we love our neighbor as ourselves

                  But what about God's command we 'forsake not he assembling of ourselves together.'

                  First and foremost, can we meet together without violating the government laws? And the answer there is - yes.

                  (1) we can meet multiple times across the day within the sizing and masking guidelines
                  (2) when temperatures allow, we can meet outside
                  (3) we can meet in individual homes within government guidelines either as small masked groups, or individual families, zooming if desired to connect all the individual groups or hold a single service


                  There is nothing in the government laws preventing us from 'assembling together'.

                  So then

                  (1) the law of love demands we do NOT make ourselves a mortal threat to others in our community.
                  (2) there are many ways we can obey Paul's admonition to meet together and not present a mortal threat to those around us.

                  Given that, I don't see how anyone can then find Biblical justification for what this pastor is doing.


                  He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                  "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    For several years Pew Research has been chronicling how Christianity was the most persecuted religion in the world but I wonder how many of thought we'd live to see how much this has spread in the West as well. Not the brutal suppression we can see in parts of Asia and Africa, but suppression just the same.

                    Like what we're witnessing in Canada. Where more and more churches require the government's "seal of approval" or face being shut down. The there's...

                    Source: Christians Are Now Being Targeted For ‘Polite Persecution’, Report Says


                    Secularism, as a culture, is increasingly becoming hostile to Christianity in the West.

                    The 2021 report on Religious Freedom in the World released by Aid to the Church in Need (ACN) reveals that there has been a rise in "political persecution" in the West. This new category of persecution comes in the form of "restrictive measures encoded in public policy and law" as worded by Bill Donohue, president of the Catholic League.


                    "If Christians in the Middle East need to fear the machete, Christians in the Western world need to fear the media, higher education, activist
                    organizations and government. They are the ones advocating, or imposing, a secular agenda on religious institutions,
                    "he said.


                    This "polite persecution," according to ACN, cloaks itself as a progressive or "enlightened" secularism.

                    Donohue also contends that these subtle attacks against the faithful "may not be as immediate or acute, but they can be culturally lethal." This echo "the quiet obscurity of the individual conscience" stated by Pope Francis who is similarly concerned about how the new cultural norms and values are making it more difficult for people of faith to have a voice in the public square.

                    WND noted that the Pope mentioned about "healthy pluralism" in his apostolic exhortation "Evangelii Gaudium" ("The Joy of the Gospel"). This kind of pluralism champions respect of differences and values by not "privatizing religions" or not relegating them to "the enclosed precincts of churches, synagogues or mosques." To do so would "represent, in effect, a new form of discrimination and authoritarianism."

                    Things brings Christians to their present dilemma where a belief on traditional values is criminalized through legislation in the guise of promoting "equality." This is done through the broadening of the definition of "hate" and by reducing moral or religious conviction to "conservatism" which, to the secularist's mind, is outdated and obsolete. This mindset that's becoming more prevalent in public affects all Christians in general.

                    Another alarming issue is the politicization in the education system. Concerned parents who would air their objections against particular subjects like sex education are constantly ignored by school administrators.

                    Other examples mentioned in the report include the following:
                    • The right to conscientious objection on religious grounds for health care professionals in relation to issues concerning abortion and euthanasia is no longer meaningfully protected in law.
                    • Graduates from particular confessional universities are increasingly denied access to certain professions.
                    • Provisions for the right of religious groups to run their own schools according to their own ethos are also in jeopardy in several countries.
                    "Polite persecution' of religion may not put us in imminent danger, but in the long run, it can accomplish the same end," Donohue commented.

                    Donohue also argued that starting or supporting campaigns to subvert the aforementioned should be in the interest of everyone that value religious freedom.

                    Reflecting on their findings, ACN International President Dr. Thomas Heine-Geldern said that to date, "the international community's response to violence based on religion and religious persecution in general can be categorized as too little, too late."

                    Heine-Geldern's observation could not be more clearer in the complacent attitudes of Western governments toward religious organizations. The recent scandals involving high-profile Christians have also complicated the fight for religious tolerance.


                    Source

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    I should note that I'm not familiar with the group discussed but their findings does dovetail nicely into what Pew and several other groups have concluded.





                    There are a lot of good observations in here Rogue, many of them I agree with completely.

                    The situation with Covid, however, is not one of these situations. We need to be 'wise as sepents yet harmless as doves'. There are and will be many opportunities to push back against the world's desire to silence Christian voices. But by acting as we are about Covid, we are violating God's laws of love and grace under the false pretense that somehow these masking and meeting size limits violate God's law. They don't. They exist exactly for the reasons Paul in Romans tells us they exist. And as a result, when we do not heed these laws, we are in fact violating God's law in the process (and bringing legitimate punishment on ourselves, and undermining our witness of the Gospel by endangering other's lives under the pretense of righteousness).
                    He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                    "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      There is nothing you (Reepicheep) are advocating here that is contrary to Christian faith, or that is 'baiting' of Christians as you have been accused.
                      ...

                      We are commanded by Paul to - as much as is possible - be at peace with those around us. We are told, as Reepicheep noted and quoted, that the government exists for a reason, and that we are to obey it...
                      Thank you for the kind words.

                      In the case of my congregation, restrictions announced in December 2020 meant that our services were limited to 30 people. I contacted the fire marshal, and he agreed we could increase this to 50 people, if we started using our balcony, which up to that point was used for storage. Our pre-COVID average attendance was around 75 people. Now that we have almost no visitors, and since the most high risk members of my congregation have made the decision to watch our live stream on youtube rather than attend in person, we rarely have more than 50 people in attendance. Each Sunday we stream our service to a TV in the basement of the church, so if more than 50 people show up for a service, up to 20 people can watch the service in the "overflow" area in the church basement.

                      On Easter Sunday, we had two services (8am and 10am) which allowed all members to attend an in-person service.

                      Since January, we have had two family groups stop attending our services because they didn't like the way we were implementing the government's COVID rules. Interestingly, one family group stopped attending because they said we were being TOO LAX in enforcing the government rules, and the other family group stopped attending because we were being TOO STRICT in enforcing the rules. I guess we can't please all the people, all the time...
                      "The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." - P. J. O'Rourke

                      Comment


                      • Calgary street preacher Artur Pawlowski arrested and charged after allegedly defying public health orders

                        Calgary police have arrested street preacher Artur Pawlowski after he allegedly failed to abide by public health orders again during a Saturday church service where dozens were congregating without masks and no regard for physical distancing...

                        https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/calgary-street-preacher-artur-pawlowski-arrested-and-charged-after-defying-public-health-orders

                        ************************


                        Artur received numerous warnings. He has no one to blame for his arrest but himself.
                        "The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." - P. J. O'Rourke

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Reepicheep View Post
                          Calgary street preacher Artur Pawlowski arrested and charged after allegedly defying public health orders

                          Calgary police have arrested street preacher Artur Pawlowski after he allegedly failed to abide by public health orders again during a Saturday church service where dozens were congregating without masks and no regard for physical distancing...

                          https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/calgary-street-preacher-artur-pawlowski-arrested-and-charged-after-defying-public-health-orders

                          ************************


                          Artur received numerous warnings. He has no one to blame for his arrest but himself.
                          I would not go that far. We see the same sort of thinking that was driving him evidenced here. There would have been many around him seeing things as many do here and encouraging his actions. And his background is Soviet oppression. And I'm sure this feels to him like what was going on there, even though in this instance that is not what it is. It's just sad to me because it's just misguided courage as it were, a completely unnecessary loss for himself and his congregation. And ultimately it just reflects poorly on the Gospel for reasons we've already outlined.

                          He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me."

                          "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Reepicheep View Post
                            Calgary street preacher Artur Pawlowski arrested and charged after allegedly defying public health orders

                            Calgary police have arrested street preacher Artur Pawlowski after he allegedly failed to abide by public health orders again during a Saturday church service where dozens were congregating without masks and no regard for physical distancing...

                            https://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/calgary-street-preacher-artur-pawlowski-arrested-and-charged-after-defying-public-health-orders

                            ************************


                            Artur received numerous warnings. He has no one to blame for his arrest but himself.
                            That's exactly the issue I raised two weeks ago (Post #31).

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Faber View Post
                              That's exactly the issue I raised two weeks ago (Post #31).
                              According to the article, they refuse to make any compromises whatsoever in how they run their services, so it is difficult to feel any sympathy for them:

                              “The service organizer acknowledged the injunction, but chose to ignore requirements for social distancing, mask wearing and reduced capacity limits for attendees, and continued with the event,” said the force, which resulted in the arrests.
                              "The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it." - P. J. O'Rourke

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post

                                There is nothing you are advocating here that is contrary to Christian faith, or that is 'baiting' of Christians as you have been accused.
                                I stand by my accusation of "baiting," not based on that particular post, but on his general approach.


                                The issue of Christians obeying government laws, or refusing to obey them, is settled by understanding the criteria associated with each. It is not a black and white situation. The scripture gives us guidance, but it literally tells us to do both - but in difference contexts. And it is the context that tells us when we should obey government laws and when we should not.

                                When we obey:

                                We are commanded by Paul to - as much as is possible - be at peace with those around us. We are told, as Reepicheep noted and quoted, that the government exists for a reason, and that we are to obey its laws. It also tells us quite clearly that THERE IS NO REWARD for persecution or hardship that comes from violating government laws. It even says disobeying government laws is disobeying God:

                                Source: Roman 13:2

                                So those who refuse to obey the law of the land are refusing to obey God, and punishment will follow.[ESV]

                                © Copyright Original Source



                                When we do not obey:

                                We only disobey government authority when to do so would be to violate God's law. So - if the government is commanding us to do something that violates God's law, then we must obey God's law first. An example often used is when the disciples are confronted by the Jewish authorities over preaching the Gospel.

                                --

                                Most of those castigating you Reepicheep are acting as if the church's violating the health department laws are using American values of religious liberty as justification. But as I noted, Biblically we can only violate government law with a clear conscience before Him of we have violated His law. So then we'd only be justified before God doing so if the government is prohibiting us from gathering together or preaching the gospel. Are the government health department laws actually doing that? And those commandments do not exist in a vacuum. We are also commanded to be at peace with the world as much as possible, and we are also command to 'love our neighbor as ourselves'.

                                Covid then presents the perfect opportunity for conflict over these laws, and the Biblical commands.

                                Covid kills about 1% of the people it infects. And it often spreads before a person is aware they are sick, or sick enough to suspect Covid. That means that anyone that willfully creates an environment where the virus can spread easily if presenting a mortal threat to those around them. So when a church congregation meets and does not require masking or limit the number of people inside, they present a mortal thread to the people outside that church and in the community in which they live.


                                So with Covid floating about, that choice to meet together in violation of health department law then also violates

                                (1) Paul's command to obey the government
                                )2) Paul's admonition we be at peace with the world as much as possible
                                (3) God's command that we love our neighbor as ourselves

                                But what about God's command we 'forsake not he assembling of ourselves together.'

                                First and foremost, can we meet together without violating the government laws? And the answer there is - yes.

                                (1) we can meet multiple times across the day within the sizing and masking guidelines
                                (2) when temperatures allow, we can meet outside
                                (3) we can meet in individual homes within government guidelines either as small masked groups, or individual families, zooming if desired to connect all the individual groups or hold a single service


                                There is nothing in the government laws preventing us from 'assembling together'.

                                So then

                                (1) the law of love demands we do NOT make ourselves a mortal threat to others in our community.
                                (2) there are many ways we can obey Paul's admonition to meet together and not present a mortal threat to those around us.

                                Given that, I don't see how anyone can then find Biblical justification for what this pastor is doing.
                                I don't know what protections Canada's constitution offers.

                                For those in the U.S., defying stringent orders is both an act of Christian fidelity *and* a patriotic act in defense of the plain wording of the First Amendment.
                                Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                                Beige Nationalist.

                                "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                                Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                                Comment

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