Biden: "Reengineering America"

[seanD]

My sources on covid are for the most part scientific journals for the virus pathology and research, various news outlets wrt it's effect on the medical system.



I'm following the lines of discussion and introducing the relevant facts where they are needed. So your comment reflects 'something else' beyond an interest in the topics actively being discussed or the facts themselves. What I am not doing is intentionally driving the conversation anywhere it is not already going.



The variants are tracked by research labs tracking the course of the virus' mutations. It is critical work to managing the pandemic, and not something to dismiss so cavalierly. Virus' mutate, it is their nature. They can become more or less virulent, but whatever direction they take, you can be sure that the mutations that survive and spread are the ones that help the virus itself survive - which is often bad news for the host. - us!

Sources that you never bothered to link. Nonetheless, like I said, neither of us is going to convince the other about how accurate the "hospitals were overwhelmed" nationwide argument was. Hospitals have undoubtedly made special provisions and advanced preparations since then (especially with all the extra funds they got for covid fatalities), so it's really a moot point to bring up now as any sort of grave concern outside of just more fearmongering about covid. To destroy a country's economy based on a virus that is 98-99% (I revise my number thanks to you!) lethal to a certain category of individuals, and continue to implement those polices when they've been proven ineffective is the exemplification of "irrational paranoia," and to those who enthusiastically support that measure. It's interesting you keep throwing around the word "paranoia" much like you throw around the word "racist" probably because you're projecting the former much like you project the latter.

[Sparko]

A really good motto for all of us is 'Don't shoot yourself in the foot'.

Most of the paranoia and conspiracy theory nonsense related to the virus is exactly that. Shooting ourselves in the foot, the leg, etc. If an action is warranted by the science or the rise and fall of the infection, then we as a country need to stop making it a political or ideological football and do what is necessary to preserve the most lives and the most quality of life possible.

People have been watching the experts giving contradictory advice for over a year now, and both sides politicizing the crisis to gain power. And scientists are not all benevolent, non-political creatures. They have political views too and will put spin on various "facts" to further those political agendas they agree with. The current CDC director in point. Her rant about how scared she is as an example. A teeny rise in infections after a dramatic drop isn't something to wring her hands over. Unless she has some special knowledge she isn't telling us, like the vaccine won't work against the variants, then as the vaccines reach the tipping point, the virus is going to go away.

[oxmixmudd]

People have been watching the experts giving contradictory advice for over a year now, and both sides politicizing the crisis to gain power. And scientists are not all benevolent, non-political creatures. They have political views too and will put spin on various "facts" to further those political agendas they agree with. The current CDC director in point. Her rant about how scared she is as an example. A teeny rise in infections after a dramatic drop isn't something to wring her hands over. Unless she has some special knowledge she isn't telling us, like the vaccine won't work against the variants, then as the vaccines reach the tipping point, the virus is going to go away.

Just to clarify - about half the people have been watching conservative pundits steeped in ignorance and strongly politically motivated to support the previous administration's anti-science bent create derogatory stories about the experts out of whole cloth for the last year.

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depends on how contagious the variants are and how effective the vaccine is against them. Lets suppose herd immunity requires 75% vaccinated for the current virus and 85% vaccinated for the variant. Lets further suppose the R value for the current is 3 and for the variant is 6, and mortality for the current virus is 1%, and the variant is 2%.

Now, 25% of our population is children, which won't be vaccinated till late summer or fall, or maybe even 2022.

If we can keep the variant at bay till we reach 75% vaccination guess what -we are at herd immunity. The virus goes away, even with our kids unvaccinated. Herd immunity in 3 to 4 months.

But at an R of 6 and us opening up the new variant WILL get a foothold and spread. And It is more deadly. And we can't reach herd immunity till we vaccinate our kids. That means it keeps spreading -and mutating - till at least 1/2 the kids are vaccinated - late fall. we just added 3 months and perhaps 50 to 100,000 more dead people to the tally (WAG) because we can't wait 1 month to open up. And in that extra 6 months it's mutating, finding ways around the virus. If it does, its another 6 months or a year after that.

I could run the numbers, but the point is made.

[seanD]

People have been watching the experts giving contradictory advice for over a year now, and both sides politicizing the crisis to gain power. And scientists are not all benevolent, non-political creatures. They have political views too and will put spin on various "facts" to further those political agendas they agree with. The current CDC director in point. Her rant about how scared she is as an example. A teeny rise in infections after a dramatic drop isn't something to wring her hands over. Unless she has some special knowledge she isn't telling us, like the vaccine won't work against the variants, then as the vaccines reach the tipping point, the virus is going to go away.

Fauci wrung his hands in a similar manner, and the commonality between them wasn't the variants but their criticism of lifting restrictions. Fauci directly mentioned it while CDC clearly implied it, especially when she referenced to the EU and the pandemic surge -- which the authoritative fearmongers argue was a result of their premature lifting of lockdown mandates.

[Sparko]

Fauci wrung his hands in a similar manner, and the commonality between them wasn't the variants but their criticism of lifting restrictions. Fauci directly mentioned it while CDC clearly implied it, especially when she referenced to the EU and the pandemic surge -- which the authoritative fearmongers argue was a result of their premature lifting of lockdown mandates.

Remember way back when Trump wanted to do the 15 days to flatten the curve and the press balked at it and wanted to know if he was going to force states to comply? My how times have changed.

[seanD]

Remember way back when Trump wanted to do the 15 days to flatten the curve and the press balked at it and wanted to know if he was going to force states to comply? My how times have changed.

An interview with Birx has also recently come out where she too was criticizing lifting lockdown measures too early. The timing is too much of a coincidence. Those are clues about what's coming.

[seanD]

My sources on covid are for the most part scientific journals for the virus pathology and research, various news outlets wrt it's effect on the medical system.



I'm following the lines of discussion and introducing the relevant facts where they are needed. So your comment reflects 'something else' beyond an interest in the topics actively being discussed or the facts themselves. What I am not doing is intentionally driving the conversation anywhere it is not already going.



The variants are tracked by research labs tracking the course of the virus' mutations. It is critical work to managing the pandemic, and not something to dismiss so cavalierly. Virus' mutate, it is their nature. They can become more or less virulent, but whatever direction they take, you can be sure that the mutations that survive and spread are the ones that help the virus itself survive - which is often bad news for the host. - us!

Sources that you never bothered to link. Nonetheless, like I said, neither of us is going to convince the other about how accurate the "hospitals were overwhelmed" nationwide argument was. Hospitals have undoubtedly made special provisions and advanced preparations since then (especially with all the extra funds they got for covid fatalities), so it's really a moot point to bring up now as any sort of grave concern outside of just more fearmongering about covid. To destroy a country's economy based on a virus that is 98-99% (I revise my number thanks to you!) lethal to a certain category of individuals, and continue to implement those polices when they've been proven ineffective is the exemplification of "irrational paranoia," and to those who enthusiastically support that measure. It's interesting you keep throwing around the word "paranoia" much like you throw around the word "racist" probably because you're projecting the former much like you project the latter.

I meant nonlethal, but you get the gist.

[oxmixmudd]

Sources that you never bothered to link. Nonetheless, like I said, neither of us is going to convince the other about how accurate the "hospitals were overwhelmed" nationwide argument was. Hospitals have undoubtedly made special provisions and advanced preparations since then (especially with all the extra funds they got for covid fatalities), so it's really a moot point to bring up now as any sort of grave concern outside of just more fearmongering about covid. To destroy a country's economy based on a virus that is 98-99% (I revise my number thanks to you!) lethal to a certain category of individuals, and continue to implement those polices when they've been proven ineffective is the exemplification of "irrational paranoia," and to those who enthusiastically support that measure. It's interesting you keep throwing around the word "paranoia" much like you throw around the word "racist" probably because you're projecting the former much like you project the latter.

I don't reference every single source in every single post. Generally when I bring new or truly challenging data into the discussion I will link to the source. I can't make you read them though

the lethality/mortality is 1-2% WITH proper medical care which is impossible if the medical system is overwhelmed, The survivability is 98-99%.

1% of the US population is 3,300,000 people seanD. That is a lot of people dead.

Those numbers are a bit confusing though -they are averages over the entire population. After 65 or so they get much worse going above 10% mortality around 75 to 80 IIRC.

The policies have been massively effective ... where they have been implemented and followed. The fact we've seen almost no flu or even colds is the prima facia evidence for just how much of a difference they have made.

Paranoia is a correct description of the idea that many of the leaders in the CDC and other medical organizations are complicit in some bizarre power grab instead of acting as the medical doctors they are and fighting for the medical well being of America's citizens. It simply isn't possible to enlist the number of doctors required to create the sort of fudged data you need. I mean Florida's governor could not even get all his programmers in line with the data fudging he wanted to do, and that was a lot smaller set of people without the massive work and investment a medical degree requires nor the overt efforts at instilled eithics that is part of such training.

[seanD]

I don't reference every single source in every single post. Generally when I bring new or truly challenging data into the discussion I will link to the source. I can't make you read them though

the lethality/mortality is 1-2% WITH proper medical care which is impossible if the medical system is overwhelmed, The survivability is 98-99%.

1% of the US population is 3,300,000 people seanD. That is a lot of people dead.

Those numbers are a bit confusing though -they are averages over the entire population. After 65 or so they get much worse going above 10% mortality around 75 to 80 IIRC.

The policies have been massively effective ... where they have been implemented and followed. The fact we've seen almost no flu or even colds is the prima facia evidence for just how much of a difference they have made.

Paranoia is a correct description of the idea that many of the leaders in the CDC and other medical organizations are complicit in some bizarre power grab instead of acting as the medical doctors they are and fighting for the medical well being of America's citizens. It simply isn't possible to enlist the number of doctors required to create the sort of fudged data you need. I mean Florida's governor could not even get all his programmers in line with the data fudging he wanted to do, and that was a lot smaller set of people without the massive work and investment a medical degree requires nor the overt efforts at instilled eithics that is part of such training.

You are simply wrong about lockdown mandates working. They have failed, You mitigate the spread by protecting the most vulnerable; you don't shut down an entire economic system. That's the exemplification of paranoia in its most destructive form.

Man, you're itching to drag me into a fight about the overinflated death count. Only thing I'' say about that is that it's interesting you bring up Florida when that's actually EVIDENCE the Dem counties were using the excess death count to exaggerate the numbers, hence the reason the numbers weren't consistent across the state. It makes perfect sense and this is likely what happened across the country -- exaggerating excess death numbers to inflate the covid numbers -- especially the blue states where the death counts were some of the highest in the nation.

[seanD]

You are simply wrong about lockdown mandates working. They have failed, You mitigate the spread by protecting the most vulnerable; you don't shut down an entire economic system. That's the exemplification of paranoia in its most destructive form.

Man, you're itching to drag me into a fight about the overinflated death count. Only thing I'' say about that is that it's interesting you bring up Florida when that's actually EVIDENCE the Dem counties were using the excess death count to exaggerate the numbers, hence the reason the numbers weren't consistent across the state. It makes perfect sense and this is likely what happened across the country -- exaggerating excess death numbers to inflate the covid numbers -- especially the blue states where the death counts were some of the highest in the nation.

I meant they were exaggerating the cause of excess deaths to inflate covid deaths, not that they were making up excess death counts. Just to be clear.