Originally posted by Roy
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California Bill Proposes Removing Cops Who Express Religious Or Conservative Beliefs
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That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
- 1 like
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
No. Conservative/Christians object to this bill because we advocate allowing religious freedoms, where some groups disagree with that expression. Especially when some interpretations of the law call that expression of freedom discriminatory.
1) violence,
2) genocide,
3) denial of constitutional rights.
It has no bearing on expression of religious freedom unless that expression includes advocating violence, genocide or denial of the constitutional rights of certain groups.
Are the religious freedoms you advocate allowing violent, genocidal, or rights-denying?
Your dodging and diving suggests that you and other conservative Christians object to this bill because it would prevent you from advocating the denial of rights to some groups. You have avoided specifying which rights those are, but it doesn't take much imagination to wonder whether you wish to deny homosexuals the right to express their own religious freedom (e.g. by marrying).
Of course, I may be wrong. You may instead wish to deny women or blacks the right to vote, have fair trials or assemble.
Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
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Originally posted by Roy View PostBut as noted, this bill concerns advocating
1) violence,
2) genocide,
3) denial of constitutional rights.
It has no bearing on expression of religious freedom unless that expression includes advocating violence, genocide or denial of the constitutional rights of certain groups.
Are the religious freedoms you advocate allowing violent, genocidal, or rights-denying?
Your dodging and diving suggests that you and other conservative Christians object to this bill because it would prevent you from advocating the denial of rights to some groups. You have avoided specifying which rights those are, but it doesn't take much imagination to wonder whether you wish to deny homosexuals the right to express their own religious freedom (e.g. by marrying).
Of course, I may be wrong. You may instead wish to deny women or blacks the right to vote, have fair trials or assemble.
That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
Comment
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostAgain, read the OP. It lays out those things conservatives are challenging as repercussions of this bill. Opposition to Prop 6 would be considered an acceptable position for a Christian. It is not a right to be required to support it. But again, it's who gets to determine what "denial" means and whhat "rights" mean.
But when I asked"Conservative/Christians object to this bill because they advocate denying rights to certain groups, and those rights are considered by some to be constitutional.
Is that correct?
As for who gets to determine what 'denial' means and what 'rights' mean, it's clear to me that
- Marriage is often a religious ceremony
- The US constitution includes the right of religious freedom
- The US constitution applies to all US citizens
therefore the US constitution precludes denying people the right to get married.
Also, you're omitting again. You say opposition to prop 6 would be acceptable, but don't say anything about support for prop 6. And you haven't said anything about prop 8 at all. Though you may have mixed them up.
Last edited by Roy; 04-07-2021, 11:51 AM.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
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Originally posted by Roy View PostRight. Propositions 6 and 8. Conservative Christians wish to deny homosexuals the right to express their religious beliefs through marriage, or to work in schools. They advocate denying rights to certain groups.
But when I asked
... you replied "No." You seem to be in denial.
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that these later-granted privileges are actually rights.
As for who gets to determine what 'denial' means and what 'rights' mean, it's clear to me that
- Marriage is often a religious ceremony
- The US constitution includes the right of religious freedom
- The US constitution applies to all US citizens
therefore the US constitution precludes denying people the right to get married.
Also, you're omitting again. You say opposition to prop 6 would be acceptable, but don't say anything about support for prop 6. And you haven't said anything about prop 8 at all. Though you may have mixed them up.
That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
Comment
-
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostUtterly false. First, those things are not rights.
speaking out against Prop 8 is not denying anyone anything. It's speaking out against a proposed law that granted a new category of individuals eligibility to be a spouse.
Your continued attempt to focus on opposing prop 8 is misleading.
Irrelevant. No one is trying to stop pointless (in our view) religious activities.
...
No one is denying anything. We just consider their "vows" pointless exercises. Just like you guys consider our practices.
So, again, my answer is no, the objection to SSM does not actually deny anything.
Conclusion: Conservative Christians wish to deny certain groups their constitutional right to freely exercise their religion, by establishing their conservative Christian view of marriage as law. This contravenes the proposed law, hence they oppose it.
Additional conclusion: You are willing to engage in whatever omissions, reversals and misrepresentations are necessary to deny this, up to and including pretending that preventing religious freedom is allowing religious freedom.
Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
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Here is the text of the bill. Since the OP, the bill has been amended, and much of the problematic language has been adjusted.
There could still be issues with a few things, such as the inclusion of "mental harm" in the definition of "genocide," and the fact that "violence" is not defined. Once upon a time, there was a generally agreed upon definition of "violence," but now it's very much in the eye of the beholder.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
Comment
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Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
-
Originally posted by Roy View PostI see they've removed the clauses about denying constitutional rights, possibly in response to objections from conservative Christians.Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.
Beige Federalist.
Nationalist Christian.
"Everybody is somebody's heretic."
Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.
Proud member of the this space left blank community.
Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.
Justice for Ashli Babbitt!
Justice for Matthew Perna!
Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!
- 2 likes
Comment
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Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostHere is the text of the bill. Since the OP, the bill has been amended, and much of the problematic language has been adjusted.
There could still be issues with a few things, such as the inclusion of "mental harm" in the definition of "genocide," and the fact that "violence" is not defined. Once upon a time, there was a generally agreed upon definition of "violence," but now it's very much in the eye of the beholder.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
Comment
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Originally posted by Roy View PostFree exercise of religion is a right defined in the first amendment of the US constitution.
Did you actually read the article you posted? It doesn't talk about conservative Christians that speak out against prop 8, it talks about conservative Christians that support prop 8:
Your continued attempt to focus on opposing prop 8 is misleading.
Prop 8 was explicitly described on the ballots as "Eliminates Rights of Same-Sex Couples to Marry", and the text was " Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.".
It denies same-sex couples their right to express their religious views by marrying their partners.
Conclusion: Conservative Christians wish to deny certain groups their constitutional right to freely exercise their religion, by establishing their conservative Christian view of marriage as law. This contravenes the proposed law, hence they oppose it.
Additional conclusion: You are willing to engage in whatever omissions, reversals and misrepresentations are necessary to deny this, up to and including pretending that preventing religious freedom is allowing religious freedom.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
Comment
-
Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostSorry. I am multitasking with work stuff.
t denies same-sex couples their right to express their religious views by marrying their partners.
It's also repressive and bigoted.Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
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Originally posted by Roy View PostSo am I, so that excuse for your sloppiness fails.
Which is unconstitutional, since it establishes some churches' marriages as being legally recognised, and others not.
It's also repressive and bigoted.That's what
- She
Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
- Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)
I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
- Stephen R. Donaldson
Comment
-
Originally posted by NorrinRadd View PostHere is the text of the bill. Since the OP, the bill has been amended, and much of the problematic language has been adjusted.
There could still be issues with a few things, such as the inclusion of "mental harm" in the definition of "genocide," and the fact that "violence" is not defined. Once upon a time, there was a generally agreed upon definition of "violence," but now it's very much in the eye of the beholder.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
Comment
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostIt's also repressive and bigoted.
Jorge: Functional Complex Information is INFORMATION that is complex and functional.
MM: First of all, the Bible is a fixed document.
MM on covid-19: We're talking about an illness with a better than 99.9% rate of survival.
seer: I believe that so called 'compassion' [for starving Palestinian kids] maybe a cover for anti Semitism, ...
Comment
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